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Technical Elephant port flat head idea

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by YesterdayR, Oct 19, 2019.

  1. YesterdayR
    Joined: Dec 6, 2018
    Posts: 4


    G`day fellas new old bloke here from Oz

    For decades flat heads have sucked me in, their simplicity fascinates me to no end.
    Sure they have their shortcomings for certain applications but in some ways they
    work similar to Diesel, good torque down low and reliable but way less efficiency.

    As my Avatar name suggests, my point of focus has been combining a pre-chamber
    and combustion chamber together as one not just using a separate pre-chamber.

    Im old so sorry for the pixelated pics done on paint with the help of arthritis!

    The bias is on one side of the valves shrouding the other where to my surprise
    Toyotas latest eco engines employ to great effect.

    The exit although not visible in my pics is shaped like a small banana
    or quarter of a circle wedge as an exit passage. This is my thinking to arrive
    at a tumbling charge that goes deep down to the bottom of the downstroke
    on a very under-square design that creates a strong clean pull effect.

    (valves like most of it is not drawn up to scale - they would be larger but
    didnt want to interfere with the general shape funnel shape)

    This design would allow the use of short inlet manifold runners and the
    usual exhaust design.

    Spark plugs would a small industrial units with the pre chamber already on
    the end which are common for industrial and Formula 1 but not the street.

    These would have 2 - 3 holes biased towards the gas flow path to help the
    flame front exits along the tunnel shaped elephants horn etc.
    Essentially this is like 2 pre chambers as a combustion chamber.

    Another version of this design is to swap the inlet and exhaust sides
    to keep the chamber cooler via inlet charge flowing over exhaust valve
    yet reshape the elephant trunk port to curve and swirl rather than tumble
    and create perhaps even more torque than the tumbling design.

    Can anyone put me on to a fluids dynamic dude that is able to help me
    further my dream of making a flat-head more efficient?
    Also your constructive views are welcome as Im not trying to outdo
    an OHV design but to raise the efficiency of the flat head so it can
    use fuel more efficiently.
  2. steinauge
    Joined: Feb 28, 2014
    Posts: 1,507

    from 1960

    I reckon if it can be done it was done to a flathead Ford.If it couldnt be done,someone tried it anyhow. Likely one of the most the most highly developed sidevalve engines ever was the old Harley-Davidson KR.At the end of the day the best ones made 56-57 bhp a 6500-7000! rpm.This from 45 cubic inches.Those engines used a Ricardo style combustion chamber and a CR of 5.95-1.I sure do wish you good luck with your project.
  3. YesterdayR
    Joined: Dec 6, 2018
    Posts: 4


    Thanks Steinauge yes the v twin is what has been polluting the thinking of the males
    in my family for close to a century now. However that didnt stop us also getting most
    of our time tinkering with all forms of flat head engines from different makes.

    The V twin allows me to place the sparkplug in the best location without worrying
    too much about indexing custom made directional pre-chamber plugs as planned
    and can just use off the shelve pre-chamber plugs.

    Inline applications will need indexing to make sure the flame front exits as planned.


    It is like a 3 stage combustion process where the first is
    inside the pre chamber of the plug, then the combustion chamber
    before being forced through the trunk into the cylinder area.
    (Trunk design as mentioned could be shaped for tumble or swirl
    where in illustration only tumble is shown for ease of demonstration)

    I focused primarily on the same aspects of human breathing
    where through the nostrils => nasal cavity => Pharynx (curved passage)
    then into the lungs of the engine.

    A dual outlet with 2 trunk ports of smaller volume could also be
    applied to create 2 directional swirls like a Helix pattern rather
    than one or 2 swirl or tumbling mixtures.

    As guessed by the witty ones this design needs to run with very
    long rods to maximize slower burning environments rather than
    fast burn and low rpm applications not exceeding 5000rpm at best.
    My aim is torque throughout rpm range from idle, smooth and
    reliable operation, fuel economy and less parts eg. compact design.

    I find that most modern engine applications move torque higher
    up the rpm range in most applications using gasoline except the
    new very complex small turbo engines that are full of parts that
    will break down over time or be a nightmare to repair.

    Hydraulics and torque creation has always been our passion.
    We love less electrics, more analogue and mechanical solutions
    usually infuriating the tech addicted narcissists, that are hell bent
    coding away to convert our world into a lifeless digital prison.

    Ecus will be in everything in time, this is just the opposite
    where I want to see better applications now that we have so many
    millions of tinkering minds that still dont mind using elbow grease.
    Typing walls of text is hard enough for me as it is for you fellas to read!

    If this design was tried then for almost 100 years and 3 generations
    of tinkering, racing and friends with the same passion has definitely
    escaped us even with copious print matter covering H Riccardo`s works.

    We have yet to come across any 4 stroke, 3 stage expansion event design
    like mine or any at all. If someone has please point me towards it and
    will greatly appreciate it.
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
  4. banjorear
    Joined: Jul 30, 2004
    Posts: 3,788


    I'm no where near smart enough to understand all this, but. as a flathead fan, I'm eager to hear how this all works out. Good luck with this project. Please keep us updated.
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  5. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 1,436

    from Napa

    Speaking of highly- developed sidevalve bike engines, you'll love this. An old buddy of mine, who you've probably heard of, Alan Sputhe (RIP) was one of those guys who was a genuine thinker, and then could build it- kinda like a Smokey with a V-twin. One of his later "fun" projects was another friend's '37 Scout vintage road racer. The class it ran in was an if it looks stock you can run it thing, and Alan was in hog heaven. He put larger valves in it until they were out to the cylinder bore, so he just casted up some new cylinders with the valve pockets and guides moved out about 1/8" and went big on the valves. Then, the Scout 3-speed trans was unacceptable, so he machined out the inside of the trans case and installed an XR-750 gearset, and made it work- and it looked stock, so OK. The bike won every race it was entered in, but needed a rebuild after each race- a bit ragged edge.
  6. YesterdayR
    Joined: Dec 6, 2018
    Posts: 4


    Alan will forever be one of our Heroes. One of his engines was drag raced for 11 year down here with no issues. The biased flow from the edges of the valves into the cylinder chamber is genius, I cant recall seeing any pics of the setup from inside of the setup you mentioned but would take a stab to imagine the non exposed valve area was shrouded intentionally to create some serious tumble in his setup.

    FYI my favorite non Sidevalve engine is the Buick "nailhead" v8 eg. torque
    kidcampbell71 and RidgeRunner like this.

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