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Edelbrock vs. Carter carbs.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by mac762, Aug 9, 2008.

  1. mac762
    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 676

    mac762
    Member

    I have a pair of Carter carbs my best Friend gave me, but I have never had much luck making an Edelbrock perform as good as a Holley. Are Carters different? I know they look about the same, do they perform about the same? I've heard people calling Edelbrocks, "Shiny Carters", is this true? What are the difference, if any?
    The carbs I have came off of a 4-71 blower, would they have been modified to use on the blower? Would I have to undo the mods ,if any, to use them on a C-66 dual quad intake for my BB Chevy?
    Thanks in advance and sorry if these are silly questions. Mac
     
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  2. Abomination
    Joined: Oct 5, 2006
    Posts: 6,692

    Abomination
    Member

    I thought the Edelbrocks were made off the molds they bought from Carter, shortly after they went out of business... I really think they're the same, dude.

    ~Jason
     
  3. mac762
    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 676

    mac762
    Member

    I thought I read here that there were some important internal differences? I can't remember exactly what they were. I tried some searches but didn't find what I was looking for. I'll try a little harder.
    I know the Carters are a lot better looking. Mac
     
  4. Bodacious
    Joined: Apr 4, 2008
    Posts: 286

    Bodacious
    Member

    I've never had much trouble getting Carters to work right (except for a Thermoquad, but we won't go there!) :D but I've never worked on an Edelbrock, which is indeed an "update" of the Carters. Some people like them, some curse them. If Edelbrock didn't fuck them up too bad though, they should be workable. I wouldn't be afraid of trying the Carters, at least the price was right. And yes, they look way better than the Edelbrocks, mainly because they don't say Edelbrock on them! They're a (formerly) great old company that unfortunately I don't have much use for anymore.
     
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  5. BillBallingerSr
    Joined: Dec 20, 2007
    Posts: 651

    BillBallingerSr
    Member
    from In Hell

    Internally they are the same as the old Carter Competition Series. I have both an Edelbrock 800 and a Carter CS, the jets and rods interchange, accelerator pumps. Both were cast by Weber. I have even took the top off of the Edelbrock 800 Thunder AVS along with the accelerator pump (the AVS has a spring loaded air door above the boosters) and put it on a Carter 750 AFB which involves swapping the rear boosters and the counterweighted air valve door (that is under the boosters) on the AFB. It all dropped right in and both run like a champ. The only difference between the two is the 800 has 1 3/4 throttle bores, and the 750 has 1 11/16, so I had to do a little creative jetting, but my tuning kits got both of them working fine. Niether like more than 5 lbs of fuel pressure, so the regulator is set at 4.5. Response has to be felt to be believed.

    OEM AFBs and AVS can be different,they had smog stuff like a single mixture screw that controlled the air. The AVS had dump tubes instead of boosters like a Q-jet or TQ. They are like Qjets, many incarnations on the OEM stuff for specific cars. Running in stock I have had to make do with AFBs, Qjets and Thermoquads, and pin drills are your best friends on getting them up to snuff. The universal carbs are the same.
     
  6. mac762
    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 676

    mac762
    Member

    The carbs I have are aftermarket 600 cfm units if that make a difference. Thanks for the replys.
     
  7. I'm running a pair of Carter 600's on a mild sbc with stock fuel pump, after some tuning they run fine. I never owned a Carter carb before but once you figure out how they tick they're easy to tune.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2008
  8. Bondoboy
    Joined: Apr 14, 2005
    Posts: 646

    Bondoboy
    Member

    i think they are both cast by Weber. I know the Edelbrock says weber right on it and I think the carter does to.. should be nearly the exact same carb as far as the new ones go..
     
  9. The Edelbrock is supposed to be a repro of the Chevy version AFB. I know the fuel inlet is in a different spot than on a couple of old Caddy AFBs I have floating around.
     
  10. studedudeus
    Joined: Jun 11, 2008
    Posts: 141

    studedudeus
    Member

    Magazine articles at the time Edelbrock came out with their carb said the calibration is different. I have had both, loved them both. I've had to do very little tuning to them. Both are cast by Webber, all parts are interchangeable, but agian the size combinations seem to be different. If you look at the list of available rods, the two companines list rods with different step combinations.

    I have the strip kit for the carter, and looked through the tuning manual for the edelbrock, I couldn't find any of the carter rods listed for the edelbrock. So there may be some differences in the nozzles, etc.
     
  11. Abomination
    Joined: Oct 5, 2006
    Posts: 6,692

    Abomination
    Member

    Yeah, there's a bunch of guys on the Cadillac boards (especially the '63/'64 Cadillac MSN Group) that use 'em, albeit in modified form, on their cars.

    Sometimes a new carb that fits your intake is worth some plumbing. :D

    ~Jason

     
  12. mac762
    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 676

    mac762
    Member

    Thanks for all the replies. I guess I better buy a couple of kits.
     
  13. tommy v
    Joined: Mar 4, 2005
    Posts: 1,970

    tommy v
    Member

    i got a new edelbrock 600 and am starting to hate it already:mad:,i put one on my 55 with a 300 hp 327 and it runs rich fool my plugs after a 60 mile around trip ,changed the metering rods [ 4% the guy said ] & plugs ,so today i go for a ride and the same thing ,but today it died at a light :mad::mad::mad:, just checked the plugs and black , when i called edelbrock the other day and the guy said to change the rods to 1457 and that would be fine but noooo ,so now back on the phone on monday:(:(
     
  14. Abomination
    Joined: Oct 5, 2006
    Posts: 6,692

    Abomination
    Member

    Too much fuel.

    You running more than 4 - 6 PSI?

    ~Jason

     
  15. Toymaker
    Joined: Mar 26, 2006
    Posts: 3,918

    Toymaker
    Member
    from Fresno,CA

    Check Fuel Pressure, Float Hieght and Primary Throttle Blade opening, The primary throttle blades should not expose the "transfer slots" that enrichen the fuel mixture off idle. Normally you can tell if they are open too far if your idle mixture screws do not repond to adjustment or if your pulling vacuum @ an idle thru your ported vacuum. The throtlle blades are sometimes opened too far to attain an idle RPM when a PCV valve is not used, initial timing is too low, and/or a rough idle camshaft is used.

    I've remember that the original Carter Tooling got really bad. Not sure how WEBER USA got involved but Edelbrock worked with them on their own calibration and booster design when WEBER retooled and other than that the Edelbrock & Federal Mogul AFB were the same, I don't know if Federal Mogul even still offers the AFB. As far as the Edelbrock name tag goes it used to be attached by only a couble of 'brads' that could be easily removed.
     
  16. tommy v
    Joined: Mar 4, 2005
    Posts: 1,970

    tommy v
    Member

    i got a stock fuel pump
     
  17. they both must have a bad power valve.............
     

  18. How big is the cam?

    What's the vacuum reading from a manifold source?

    Stock and very mild cams idle at 18-19" vacuum if the engine has good rings and valves.

    A big cam - advertised duration of 280 degrees or so will idle 9-11".

    If you have low vacuum levels at idle and low speeds the metering rods will open early making the engine run rich at idle and on the low end.

    Put in a weaker metering rod spring if that's the case.

    Packages of 5 are under $10. at Summit.

    Vacuum holds the metering rods closed and springs open them.

    If you try a new pair of springs and don't like them, be sure to store them in a well marked small bottle or baggy.

    Gasoline washes the paint color coding off them after they've been run a while.

    In any event, peruse the manual for jetting and trouble shooting information.
    If you don't have one, go to the Edelbrock site and download one for free.
     
  19. KustomF100
    Joined: Dec 26, 2003
    Posts: 371

    KustomF100
    Member
    from Joliet, IL


    I had a stock fuel pump on a SBC and an Edelbrock carb. Similar symptoms. I installed a fuel pressure gauge, and much to my surprise the $10.00 fuel pump put out 9.5lbs of pressure. Installed a regulator, set to 5.5lbs, and away I went. I believe that 99.5% of Edelbrock carburetor problems are actually fuel pressure related. They really are great running carbs if you treat them nicely.
     
  20. Drive Em
    Joined: Aug 25, 2006
    Posts: 1,748

    Drive Em
    Member

    If I had a dollar for all the Edelbrocks I have fixed with a simple fuel pressure regulator, I would have about $20.00. Most of them run really good at 3.5-4 p.s.i. A stock pump will put out way more pressure than needed. The Edelbrock tech lines will not tell you to install a regulator for some reason.
     
  21. tommy v
    Joined: Mar 4, 2005
    Posts: 1,970

    tommy v
    Member

    thanks guys, i think i'll check the pressure frist and see where thats at
     

  22. Not a snide comment against Edelbrock, but I'd say it's as simple as telling the phone tech troops not to recommend anything Edelbrock doesn't sell.

    Edelbrock ought to take this as an opportunity and make an inexpensive pressure regulator.

    Multi-port regulation shouldn't be too expensive to knock out with their CNC machinery.

    Good selling point as well.
     
  23. tommy v
    Joined: Mar 4, 2005
    Posts: 1,970

    tommy v
    Member

    i just checked the psi and it's almost 7 psi [6 3/4] too much i guess:(
     
  24. Abomination
    Joined: Oct 5, 2006
    Posts: 6,692

    Abomination
    Member

    I was wondering... that was the first thing I thought of when I read about your problem - it popped right up, like word-association or something.

    Granted, I'm a Rochester/Stromberg guy, but a lot a folks usually have something simple wrong, like fuel pressure. So don't feel bad, man... lots of folks have done it, including me (how in the heck do you think I knew about it?) LOL! :D

    Did adding a regulator and cranking it down a bit help your situation?

    ~Jason

     
  25. 60man
    Joined: Jan 1, 2007
    Posts: 148

    60man
    Member

    FWIW: I run dual AFB Comp Series carbs on a T-ram on my 508 C.I. Pontiac motor per class rules (NSS). A 4760 & 4762 Carter AFB. Big roller cam yeilds only 5.5-6 vac. at idle. With some internal mods (air bleeds) and the proper secondary air valves they perform great..Throttle respone rivals F. I. !! I run 6.5 PSI with out issue. I also run the .110 needle/seats. You can check to see if you have the correct metering rod spring by simply watching them. Just loosen the screw holding piston cap in place and move it enough to see top of vaccum piston and then secure top with screw, don't want piston up out of hole with some of the taller springs or "suck" screw into running motor. You can start car and observe the piston action. It should be at bottom of bore and not BOUNCING when at idle.! If it's bouncing or won't "go down",you need lighter springs..
    BTW: AFB's don't have "power valves"....just metering rods/vac pistons.:)
    Not all secondary air valves are the same either..carb to carb. The Chevy style snaps open too soon for big inch motors....such as mine. They come in different weights and blade angles. If they open too soon car will stumble as there are no squirters on secondary side. Some of the "stick guys" can get away without air valves..
    I would opt for the Thunder series E'brocks for street or non Chevy SB.
    BUT..I haven't tried a Thunder carb either..
    JMO.
     

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  26. I noticed a different sound in "the hit" of the exhaust note at idle when I leaned the carbs out some on my combo. I thought that to be strange that more fuel would make it hit harder, I liked that sound but not to the tune of drivability.
     
  27. RacerRick
    Joined: May 16, 2005
    Posts: 2,753

    RacerRick
    Member

    You can also install the "off road" needle and seat setup. It will tolerate more fuel pressure and will also is a larger diameter I believe for more fuel flow.
     
  28. chaos10meter
    Joined: Feb 21, 2007
    Posts: 2,191

    chaos10meter
    Member
    from PA.

    What would you think the p.s.i. on a mild sbc 350, with a 671 Dwyers on it and two 600 Edelbrocks should be ?

    Thanks,
     
  29. tommy v
    Joined: Mar 4, 2005
    Posts: 1,970

    tommy v
    Member

    i was just reading the manual and it says no more than 6.0 psi ,just talked to a tech and he said to get a regulator and set it at 4.5 to 5.5 psi so to the store again , i've have had alot of cars and this is the frist edelbrock carb and the frist time i've had to use a regulator:(
     
  30. I started running Carter's the day a guy at Santa Ana Speed Center took the 650 Double Pumper off my stout 331" small block and put on a 625 AFB and the truck went faster and got better mileage.
    I have used many Carter's and now Edelbrock's since that fateful day in the late 70's and have never regretted it. The coupe has two on a 302 ford with the progressive linkage and it runs great.
    I think they are a hell of a lot easier to dial in than a Holley - no metering plates, no draining and spilling fuel from the bowls, life is good. Maybe because i was a Weber guy from way back but they just make more plain sense and are more logical to me than a bunch of metering plates and those damn power valves that Holley uses.
    And Yeah, they are sensitive to fuel pressure
    JMHO
     

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