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Technical Early Ford Quick Change Banjo Build

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by brsturges, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    I finally took the plunge and purchased a quick change kit for the banjo rear end I had set aside for my next project. I always wanted a quick change and decided to make this the first official start of my next build. My plan is to build a 27T modified style hot rod and the rear end on those cars is always a major focal point. So I contacted Bruce here on the HAMB (@GearheadsQCE ) to discuss some options. I ultimately decided on the Winters Early Ford V8 Center Kit. This kit works with 1936 and up banjo rear ends and retains most of the original parts. The build was fairly straightforward and very similar to a normal banjo rear end rebuild. I figured I'd do a build thread as I don't think there are any build threads on the HAMB for this particular style quick change. I would certainly recommend this to anyone considering a quick change. It is a pretty affordable option all things considered - especially if you have a good banjo rear already. Here is a picture from Winter's catalog of what the kit comes with.

    Capture.JPG

    So the only unused parts from your original banjo are the center section, and the ring and pinion gears. You can sell those off and consider it a discount on the quick change kit! The kit comes with one carrier bearing (no race), a full shim set (many more than the two pictured, and a pair of quick change gears. I went with the torque tube option as I plan on running a shortened torque tube on my project. I also opted for helical cut quick change gears and the special shim set needed when using helical quick change gears.

    The first step was getting all the parts from my banjo cleaned up and ready to assemble. It took me collecting a few banjos to get together a set of parts that were in great shape. Here is a link to a thread I did when trying to find the best axle shafts.

    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/banjo-axle-question-where-there’s-wear.1133539/

    I had the banjo tubes sand blasted, used some filler primer, and shot some rustoleum on them.

    IMG_4321.jpg
    IMG_4553.jpg
    IMG_5150.jpg

    I then cleaned out the tubes really well with some engine degreaser and a pressure washer (probably should have done that before painting and blasting but it worked out fine). I highly recommend building some sort of stand like you see in the picture below to use when you are just working on the housings. Mine is nothing special at all but allowed me to hold the housing up on its small end. As you will see in later posts, I used an engine stand when assembling the entire rear end.

    IMG_5167.jpg

    Next, the driver's side housing needs to be clearanced on the inside a bit to make sure the nuts on the ring gear don't hit the webbing. This is all covered in the assembly instructions that come with the quick change kit. I can try to scan those and post them for those of you who might want to check out the procedure before undertaking this project.

    IMG_5181.jpg IMG_5182.jpg

    I then pressed the new bearing on the ring gear, installed a new race in the housing, and test fit the gear on the driver's housing to make sure there was good clearance. You can see some condensation on the ring gear as I had that in the freezer to shrink it a bit and I gently heated the bearing in my ultrasonic cleaner.

    IMG_5184.jpg IMG_5185.jpg IMG_5186.jpg

    In my next post we'll move on to the axle prep and the bearing preload and backlash adjustments via the gaskets of varying thicknesses. Stay tuned for more...
     
  2. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 13,653

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Boy the finish turned out nice on those axle housings!
    Was that rattle can Rustoleum or spray gun?
     
    kadillackid and brsturges like this.
  3. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    Thanks Denny. I used regular rattle can rustoleum.
     
    kadillackid likes this.
  4. Petejoe
    Joined: Nov 27, 2002
    Posts: 10,543

    Petejoe
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Zoar, Ohio

    What a great idea. Thanks for taking the time to give us a step by step.
    When it comes to rear ends I’ve always became shy to try it.
    We need more techie posts here. Haven’t had many as of late.
    Thanks in advance. PJ
     
    bct likes this.

  5. I'm staying tuned in to this thread, looking forward to your updates... thanks :)
     
  6. UNCLECHET
    Joined: Dec 3, 2002
    Posts: 1,113

    UNCLECHET
    Member

  7. Happydaze
    Joined: Aug 21, 2009
    Posts: 964

    Happydaze
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'm tuned in!

    What ever happened to Tech Week(s)?

    Chris
     
  8. Fitnessguy
    Joined: Sep 28, 2015
    Posts: 1,401

    Fitnessguy
    Member

    Great post idea. Looking forward to the rest


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
  9. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

    Moving on to the axles, I decided to lap them with the hubs to make sure the taper is as snug as possible. I mixed and matched axles and hubs a bit so it is especially important to do this in my situation. Even if you are using the same axles and hubs that were originally there, lapping them is good insurance. I used a lapping compound I got at Autozone and went to work.

    IMG_5189.jpg

    After brushing some compound on the taper, I slid the hub on the axle, lining up the key way with the slot in the hub. I then rotated the hub back and forth about a quarter turn each way while pushing the hub into the taper.

    IMG_5190.jpg

    I repeated this a bunch of times with fresh lapping compound. I was surprised how well it worked. You'll know it's on there good when you get nice uniform marks on the taper. You also won't be able to just pull off the hub after pushing it hard onto the taper. You'll need to tap it off with a rubber mallet. I repeated this on both sides and then made sure to mark which hub goes with which axle.

    IMG_5191.jpg

    In my first post I mentioned using an engine stand to assemble the rear axle. This made the process incredibly easy. I can't take credit for the idea, as I saw a few others do it on various banjo threads here on the HAMB. But it makes the whole process so much easier and enjoyable. And the quick change center section looks so nice hanging out there on the stand :)

    IMG_5250.jpg IMG_5426.jpg

    Note that the axle I am using was a 1948 model, so it's a little wider than the earlier axles. that meant that I could not rotate the full axle to a completely vertical position. That was not an issue, though, as i would slide the axle/differential assembly in and out with the center section at an approximate 45 degree angle. This worked fine. Don't mind the grease on the gasket surface. This picture was from final assembly. I decided not to use any sealant and just rely on the gaskets to do their job as my mating surfaces were really nice. Hopefully I don't have any leaks! :eek:

    IMG_5487.jpg

    In my next post, I'll cover the bearing preload and backlash settings.
     
    OzyRodder, prpmmp, dwollam and 5 others like this.
  10. 51box
    Joined: Aug 31, 2005
    Posts: 916

    51box
    Member
    from MA

    Thanks for posting this build, look forward to learning about setting something like this up.
     
  11. Jeff Norwell
    Joined: Aug 20, 2003
    Posts: 13,024

    Jeff Norwell
    MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    These are the rears that were made for Dick Spadaro.... I have one and they work great....I assume after Dicks passing ,Winters took over the operation.
    At the time, you could only buy them from Spadaro.....
    Nice work man.
     
  12. Bill Nabors
    Joined: Jul 24, 2011
    Posts: 281

    Bill Nabors
    Member

    I have one of the Spadaro kits for my 36. I plan to put it together this winter. I think I will have to use different side bearings.
     
  13. shivasdad
    Joined: May 27, 2007
    Posts: 550

    shivasdad
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Texas

    Subscribed. Love seeing a well done tech article.
     
  14. studebakerjoe
    Joined: Jul 7, 2015
    Posts: 702

    studebakerjoe
    Member

    Brad, the rear is looking really good. Wonder what happened to all those extra banjo parts?
     
  15. oldtom69
    Joined: Dec 6, 2009
    Posts: 510

    oldtom69
    Member
    from grandin nd

    great thread,Thanks!!
     
  16. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    You guys are correct. This is definitely a Spadaro unit. The instructions are titled that way and I imagine written by him.
     
  17. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    Thanks, Joe. I think you have at least 50% of the unused parts :). Glad they didn't go to waste!
     
  18. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    In this post I’ll cover the process of setting the proper carrier bearing preload and the pinon gear/ring gear backlash. These are set using the set of gaskets of varying and specific thicknesses shown below. I did not take pictures during this process, unfortunately, but I do have final assembly pictures showing how it all goes together. I will post those later once I’ve gone through the rest of the process.

    The kit comes with one gasket set, but I ended up buying another set because I was worried about ruining the gaskets during the assembly and disassembly. The whole process involves putting the axle together and taking it a part many times, so it can be a bit tedious. Below is a picture of the gasket set that comes with the kit.
    IMG_5193.jpg
    The blue gaskets are .009” thick, the green ones are .007”, the beige are .005”, and the almost translucent ones are .003”. The idea is that by spacing out the axle housings from the center section by using gaskets (see the yellow arrows in the picture below), you create more or less squeeze (preload) on the carrier bearings (see the blue arrows).
    Bearing Example.jpg
    I started with a blue gasket on each side. Me and a buddy then stood on each end of the axle and grabbed the axle end shown with the red arrows. We both attempted to spin the axle in the same direction. If it spins easily, you need more preload (less gaskets). If it does not turn, or turns REALLY difficultly, you need less preload (more gaskets). Whatever total gasket thickness you end up with, you need to maintain this total thickness when you start swapping gaskets from side to side to adjust backlash. This is discussed more below.

    I initially thought I needed two blue gaskets on each side for the right preload. Obviously, without hubs on the axle ends, you don’t have much leverage to spin the axle. But that is part of the deal and key to getting the right feel. Here is an important note about getting the right feel. I did not have any axle seals in when I did my test fitting. Those are the seals that are pressed into the outboard ends of the axle housings. I didn’t want to mess them up during all the test fitting. When these seals are not in, the axle can move around in the axle housing slightly and the axle tends to sag down a bit in the housing. When you are turning the ends with your buddy, be sure to slightly lift the axle to center it in the housing. This will simulate the final assembly position better. I ended up adjusting my preload setting once I figured this out.

    Now that you have the carrier bearing preload set, you need to get the backlash right between the ring gear and the pinion gear. Hopefully this picture below can help you visualize what you need to do. When the passenger side housing is installed with a given size gasket, and the carrier bearing is resting on the race (blue arrows), the ring gear is at a certain distance from the pinon (green arrows). If you increase the size of the gasket on the passenger side, the bearing race moves farther away from the pinon gear, and in turn, the ring gear moves closer to the pinion gear. That will create less backlash. If you decrease the size of the gasket, you move the bearing race closer to the pinion, and the ring gear farther away from the pinion, which increases backlash. Hope that makes sense. I got this turned around in my head a bunch of times during the assembly :rolleyes:.

    Mesh Example.jpg
    So to recap, more gasket on the passenger housing decreases backlash. Less gasket increases backlash. You are looking for between .003" and .008" of backlash measured at the splines of the shaft. During my test (with two blue gaskets on each side), I had too much backlash. So I needed less backlash, which means I needed more gasket on the passenger side. But you need to keep the total gasket thickness the same to keep the preload setting correct. So, I moved one of the blue gaskets from the driver’s side to the passenger side. That gave me .006 in backlash as seen in the picture below. The pinion gear shaft is not super easy to spin, which can make getting the backlash feel kind of tricky, but I used the vice grips with some tubing to protect the shaft and it worked well
    IMG_5210.jpg
    I ended up changing one of the blue gaskets on the passenger side to a green gasket. That gave me .004 backlash, and my preload setting felt a little better. I think it was actually a little loose with the four blue gaskets, but I wasn't lifting the axle as mentioned above.Stay tuned for the next post including final assembly and quick change gear shimming.
     
  19. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,247

    oj
    Member

    Great work, top notch really. How was the pinion preload done? When I did my banjo I didn't care for how Ford did it. I also questioned the amount of backlash, you have to read it at the pinion and seems to me reading .007ish at the outside of a 8ish" ring gear would translate to a much smaller number at the pinion. I wound up shimming until the clunk-clunk felt just right.
     
  20. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    Thanks for the feedback OJ. The great thing about these particular quick change units is that the pinion preload is factory set. You don’t need to mess with it. That’s one of the most annoying things about rebuilding a banjo!

    On the backlash, I wanted to keep it on the lower end of the spec as well. That’s why I ended up changing it from .006 to .004. In fact, Bruce (who sold me the quick change), recommended even less. I’m comfortable with .004, and it feels good when the hubs are on.
     
    oj likes this.
  21. oldtom69
    Joined: Dec 6, 2009
    Posts: 510

    oldtom69
    Member
    from grandin nd

    Did you leave the ring gear off the carrier when you got the initial total gasket thickness needed?Cant do that with a stock carrier,but it appears this uses what Halibrand used to call the"cut-out" ring gear.Found it to be simpler,at least on the champ style QC's to get that total without the ring gear mounted
     
  22. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    Tom, I kept the ring gear on actually. I saw that it could be removed, but I didn’t want to mess with that. I figured removing it would allow the assembly to spin slightly easier since you would not be spinning the pinion shaft. Didn’t want to mess with the “feel” any since the instructions did not mention removing the ring gear.
     
  23. steve hackel
    Joined: Mar 5, 2010
    Posts: 208

    steve hackel
    Member

    Do you have the address where one of these can be bought from?
     
  24. 41fastback
    Joined: Sep 25, 2005
    Posts: 341

    41fastback
    Member

  25. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    Hey Steve. While you can get them from Summit, I’d suggest supporting a fellow HAMBer and contact @GearheadsQCE who can set you up with one. With an alliance discount I believe it was essentially the same price as Summit. Plus Bruce has been super helpful along the way when questions arose.
     
    Nailhead Jason, oj and kadillackid like this.
  26. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,513

    GearheadsQCE
    Member

    Brad,
    Thanx for the shout out!
    I've been watching to see how you went about assembling your unit. Good job on that!

    I just received another unit like yours to assemble for a customer. When you are finished, I will show how my set-up differs from yours. Not saying mine is better, just another approach.

    Just a comment on doing business with HAMB Alliance Vendors:
    Brad and I shared 78 messages, 25 before he purchased his QC and the rest afterward. We explored several options and I gave him my suggestions. In the end he decided to purchase the Winters/Spadaro unit.

    As he said, the price from me was equal to or less than Summit. But, Summit does not offer all the options that Brad wanted. So, by the time he bought the additional parts he would have spent at least $150 more.

    Alliance Vendors are guys that love cars. We like to share information and are especially happy when a customer gets exactly what he wants. We support the HAMB and offer discounts to Alliance Members. Be a stand-up guy, like Brad, and support them. Also, join the Alliance. Ryan has given us a terrific forum to share information, we need to support it.
     
  27. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 13,653

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Nothing better than positive feedback from both a customer and a vendor together.
    I sure wish a quick change rearend was in my future.
    Bruce would be my go-to guy for sure!
     
  28. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 828

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    Bruce, can't wait to see how you do yours. I'll likely be redoing mine shortly thereafter :rolleyes:
     
  29. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,513

    GearheadsQCE
    Member

    DDDenny,
    I'd love to build one for you.

    Or sell me your Deuce! Never mind, I can't afford it.;)
     
  30. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 13,653

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    I considered a Q/C before I found the nine inch rear for my roadster Bruce, had even studied a few cars as to how much the gas tank needed to be notched.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019

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