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Technical Early Ford Banjo Rear End Rebuild

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by tdog, Apr 5, 2010.

  1. allstarderrick
    Joined: Jul 23, 2007
    Posts: 603

    allstarderrick
    Member

    Great tech. Just did the rear in my sedan (quickchange). I just wanted to pass along a quick thing I did. Instead of pressing the bearing on the carrier, I heated it in the oven and it literally dropped right on. I'm sure there will be someone arguing that technique, but it worked for me. Good luck.
     
    jailhousebob likes this.
  2. tdog
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 125

    tdog
    Member
    from Omaha, NE

    RustyMetal. You know I do son! Just trying to find the time to write it up . The wife got me doing all kinds of non car related stuff. You know the boring shit. I am on it. Hopefully tonight. I think I may have a kitchen pass and have time. :)
     
  3. ago
    Joined: Oct 12, 2005
    Posts: 2,199

    ago
    Member
    from pgh. pa.

    Instead of turning the pinion shaft so the bearing will slide on you can use a brake hone to open up the inside of the bearing.


    Ago
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  4. Fe26
    Joined: Dec 25, 2006
    Posts: 543

    Fe26
    Member

    Damm! Now there are no excuses left for me not to get into my pile 'o' shit. 5 of the dirty buggers.
     
  5. One thing I'd like to add. I've just done my 47 banjo, and I think patience needs to be added to the list of parts you'll need. Ford banjos require a fair amount of assembly / disassembly / assembly to do the job right.
     
  6. tdog
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 125

    tdog
    Member
    from Omaha, NE

    Install the pinion snout bearing:
    I did not get an overall pic of the set up pressing the pinion snout bearing in the press but it looked very similar to when I pressed out the pinion.
    I put the new pinion snout bearing in the freezer and while the center section was set up in the press I took the torch and heated up the housing around the pinion snout both sides. Again don&#8217;t go crazy just a little is all you need. It pressed in easy with hardly any effort from the press. Possibly could be done with room temp center section and cold bearing.
    [​IMG]
    I put the retainer on and attached it in place with two 3/16 rivets.
    [​IMG]
     
  7. tdog
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 125

    tdog
    Member
    from Omaha, NE

    Time to tighten up the pinion for preload. First I put on the flat washer with a pinion notch tab. (Tab prevents washer from spinning), then a big nut, Then the lock washer with a pinion notch tab and last the other big nut. I put a 6 point impact socket over the splines that I could use a ½ ratchet on. Then I tightened up the big nut.
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    And check with my inch pound torque wrench. Till I got between 16 – 28 in lbs (new bearing specs) used bearings would be less. I ended up with 27 in lbs. then I tighten up the last big nut I used lock tight on the threads.
    [​IMG]
    Because the lock washer had a pinion notch tab the first nut used to set preload will not spin when you tighten the outer nut. So you preload should stay the same as you tighten the out nut. Make sure to check preload when finished tightening.
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  8. tdog
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 125

    tdog
    Member
    from Omaha, NE

    Next I need to match the Hubs to the axles. I was told by an old timer when I was building my first banjo the trick to getting a strong bond between the axle the hub was to get the axle in vise (Without the key). Then you take the hub and put it on the axle and it should lock on as you spin and push. Like a machinist’s collet (Spell?) And it should be difficult to get it off. If it will not stick to the axle there are high spots on the axle that need to be taken down with a file. Once you get them knocked down you are set. To get the hub off the axle in the picture I had to take the hub out of the vise and turn it upside down and gently drop in on a block of wood to get off. I then Marked both drums one with L and one with R with stamp and marked the axles to match out on the ends so the rear end would be assembled as they paired together. As info this can be down with the axle horizontally but I don’t big enough bench to hold my vise.
    [​IMG]
     
  9. tdog
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 125

    tdog
    Member
    from Omaha, NE

    Now that the axles are checked for hub fitment I was ready to assemble the diff with both axles and spiders gears for the final time. Using plenty of gear oil inside the spider gears and axle ends. Don’t want this to be dry on the first drive around the block. I put a dab of oil on each bolt and torque the nuts down to 30 ft lbs. My chart said a 3/8 bolt 24 thread w oil should be 35 to 40 ft lbs but 35 ft lbs seemed like too much of stress on the bolt (Stretching more then I wanted it to) I used a pry-bar to hold the assembly from turning while I torqued them down. Then safety wired them.
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  10. 392_hemi
    Joined: Jun 16, 2004
    Posts: 1,737

    392_hemi
    Member

    Pinion preload spec is 12-17 lb. The manual shows a spring loaded tool with a scale that's used for the measurement, but I've never seen one in person. So I made up a tool from a 6 spline coupler that I bored out to accept a 3/8" drive deep socket which I pinned in place. I use that with a standard torque wrench.

    Here's the procedure for adjusting the gear lash direct from the manual:

    HOW TO REASSEMBLE AND ADJUST DRIVE GEAR: Assemble the differential including the axles and drive gear and bolt the unit securely together. Be sure to check the clearance between the differential pinion gear and spider shaft to see that it does not exceed the limits of .005" to .008". If these parts are worn in excess of these limits, they should be replaced.

    When the differential assembly is ready to install in the axle housing, bolt the banjo housing with the pinion assembly installed to the right axle housing with an .008" to .010" gasket between members.

    Slide the differential assembly into the right axle housing and slide the left axle housing into position over the left axle shaft.

    Bolt the left axle housing to the banjo with an .008" to .010" gasket between these two housings.

    HOW TO ADJUST DIFFERENTIAL SIDE BEARINGS: COMMERCIAL AND PASSENGER CARS ONLY: With both the right and left axle housings bolted to the banjo, the differential side bearing clearance may be checked by rotating both axles in the same direction at the same time. The differential should show a perceptible bearing drag yet be free enough to turn by hand. If the clearance is too great, reduce gasket thickness between the right hand housing, and the banjo housing, Fig. 33. If the adjustment is too tight, increase the gasket thickness. The adjustment should be made entirely by adding or removing gaskets between the right axle housing and the banjo.

    CAUTION: Do not disturb the gasket thickness between the left axle housing and the banjo while making this adjustment.

    * * *

    HOW TO ADJUST DRIVE AND PINION GEAR BACKLASH: PASSENGER CARS ONLY: The backlash measurement should be taken with a dial indicator as shown in Fig. 34. The dial indicator should be placed in such a position against the splines of the pinion gear shaft that it will mearure the free movement of the shaft when rocked back and forth without turning the drive gear. The backlash should be within the limits of .006" to .010".

    Too much backlash between the gears wil cause the teeth to break off while too little will cause a gear hum or noise and galling of the teeth.

    The amount of backlash between the gears can be increased or decreased by adding or removing gaskets between the left axle housing and the banjo.

    CAUTION: If the gasket thickness on the left side of the banjo is reduced, the gasket thickness on the right side of the banjo should be increased by an equal amount and vice versa. If this precaution is not taken, the differential carrier bearing adjustment will be changed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2010
  11. zgears
    Joined: Nov 29, 2003
    Posts: 1,557

    zgears
    Member

  12. tdog
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 125

    tdog
    Member
    from Omaha, NE

    Now I am ready to check the back lash between the pinion and the ring gear. First I set everything on the floor so I could mark all the pieces to make sure I bolted them together correctly. Center section drain plug down, Pinion toward the front, spring perches 180 degrees to the back. (Humps in the spring perch arms up. Then used my .007 gasket on one bell and my other .007 gasket on the other bell and bolted the whole thing together. Then I set up my dial indicator. To read from the splines. I got .008
    [​IMG]
    then I set it up to read from the Lock washer (That has not yet been bent over)and I got .016
    [​IMG]

    When you check from the splines I believe you are too close to the center line of the pinion from where the gears are touching inside the case. And when you check form the lock washer I think you are too far away from the center line pinion compared where the gears are touching inside the case. So I was shooting for a number in the middle closer to the spline number. (I hope I am explaining this so you guys understand what the hell I m talking about. That’s my own take. I would like to see an old service manual on how to measure correctly.
    I thought .008 was too much. I wanted to tighten her up a bit. So I went to the gasket kit and pulled out a .005 and .009 (Total still .014 like my two .007s)I took the two .007s out and I put the .005 on the ring gear side which moved the center section and pinion gear closer into the ring gear to tighten up the back lash. I Added some gear pattern check “white stuff”(Not sure name) also seen it come in yellow. I applied it to three teeth on the ring gear. So I could check the pattern when I ran it around after I check the back lash. I bolted it all up and check the back lash again from both points (Splines and Lock washer). I ended up with .006 at the splines and .014 on the lock washer. I figure where the actual teeth are touching I am around .009 or .011 ish. The back lash of 9” or 8.8 Ford rear end specs are .008 to .012 Then I beat over the tabs of the lock washer.
    <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p> </o:p>
    Pulled the whole thing apart and checked the pattern.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The pattern looked great. You don’t want to see the pattern run off the ends at the toe or the heel of the drive or the coast side if you do. It will most likely howl. Either on acceleration or on deceleration depending if runs off the drive or the coast side.
    As far as I know these pinions were not meant to shim like all the newer rear ends are. However I read in one of the recent Goodguys magazine a company who sells banjo parts say they do change add shims or machine material off the pinion. I would almost try a new center section before machining on a pinion gear. The article had nice pics but no real info about putting a banjo together. It was almost like they did not want to let the cat out of the bag on how to build one. They also said they sell special tools to work on these. Hot rodders I know build thier own special tools or are welcome to borrow mine. I built all my stuff to work on the banjos. And believe me if I built the race installers and seal installers it ain’t to tough. That article is the main reason I wrote this up. These aint hard fellas but doing a banjo right does take time.
    <o:p> </o:p>
     
  13. tdog
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 125

    tdog
    Member
    from Omaha, NE

    Now time for the final assembly
    I was now ready to install the bell seals. I fabiricated a seal installer from a pc of pipe with smaller pcs of pipe on the end that will hold the seal. The seal gets pulled in with a pc of all-thread. I added wheel bearing grease to the rubber of the seal and the outside of the seal to help it pull into place better. Also smeared a litte on the axles where the seals will ride.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    I put a bead of silicon sealent on the bells I went with a small bead because I did not want the sealant to interfear with my preload settings. When I put the gasket on I squeezed it up around the gasket to the top side of the gasket so silicone would be on both sides of the gasket. Geez this is taking me a long time to type. Almost done.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Then I installed the bells and put a dab of sealant on each bolt. And put it all together for the final time.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    It probably took close to 20 hours to do this rearend. That includes taking two center sections apart and dealing with the rusty bells.

    DONE!
    Thank goodness ( Tired of typing)
     
  14. tdog
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 125

    tdog
    Member
    from Omaha, NE

    Hit the nail on the head!
     
  15. tdog
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 125

    tdog
    Member
    from Omaha, NE

    Not sure? We got everything in kit off of ebay. I would search for the name sticker. Vintage Ford I think located in Sacramento may have them?
     
  16. tdog
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 125

    tdog
    Member
    from Omaha, NE

    That good stuff! Thanks for taking the time post. It looks my specs for setting up the pinion follow what you have posted that is good news since my ol has already installing and I really don't want to pull it apart again.

    The preload on the pinion seems more the settings for used bearings? Maybe that how they did back then all the spec I have see for bearing for newer style rear end are higher 16 -28 inch pounds? These old bearings are bigger then pinion bearings in a 9" and 8.8. I set my first banjo with these same spec 16-28 and I have not had any problems that rearend hads been on the road for two years.

    Either way that is some good info and thanks agian for posting. That some hard info find. I searched awhile and did not find much on banjo specs or detailed instructions on how to put one together
     
  17. Great, thanks for the info & the typing
     
  18. rustymetal
    Joined: Feb 18, 2003
    Posts: 534

    rustymetal
    Member

    thanks tdog , now you can do the wifes chores
     
  19. butch27
    Joined: Dec 10, 2004
    Posts: 2,830

    butch27
    Member

    This is the best one yet. Now we all know how to do it. I've got 2 more and one open drive ring /pinion and housing to mes with. Don't know what i need all of these for?
     
  20. tdog
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 125

    tdog
    Member
    from Omaha, NE

    Can anybody tell me what kind of fluid to put in this thing?
     
  21. 392_hemi
    Joined: Jun 16, 2004
    Posts: 1,737

    392_hemi
    Member

    Best stuff going is LE 90 or 140. Speedway sells it.
     
  22. I'm at work and don't have time right now to read every response, so please forgive me if it has been brought up already. How much power/torque can a banjo rear handle if properly set up?
     
  23. lowsquire
    Joined: Feb 21, 2002
    Posts: 2,564

    lowsquire
    Member
    from Austin, TX

    I have an old ford manual (32-39 V8)that shows a pic of the dial indicator resting on the splines to set backlash, so I assume the specs are measured at that point, not the lock washer. your method of going halfway to where the actual backlash is on the gear makes sense to me, the wording of the manual doesnt really clarify this point.
     
  24. tdog
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 125

    tdog
    Member
    from Omaha, NE

    Not sure about how much torque they will handle? I think its more how they are driven. If you looking to tear the tires off and side step the clutch often a factory style banjo is probably not for you. I do believe the 9" stye axle conversions would be a big help. The ends of the bells are reworked to take an axle set up with pressed in type alxe bearings. No more hubs for the rear use a brake drum instead. Not sure if the axles are thicker in diameter then the factory axles? This set up will keep your wheel on if you break an axle. assuming the break occurs on the inside of the bearing. (Not right at the wheel stud flange). I do believe the banjo ring and pinion set up is a really strong design. all the bearings are huge and the biggest plus is the pinion snout bearing out on the end of the pinion. This keeps the end of the pinion from trying walk up the ring gear during hard acceleration. This set up if just like the 9" ford set up. One of the reasons the 9" is stronger then most rearends is because of this pinoin snout bearing. I hope that helps.
     
  25. tdog
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 125

    tdog
    Member
    from Omaha, NE

    Thanks for info. This last week my ol man spoke with some place back East Dick Sparrow? (spell) He is sending my Dad the rear end greese he suggests and sells. I will post it up when I find out what it is.

    I put that Speedway oil in my 9" in a roadrace car and seems to be work well.
     
  26. tdog
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 125

    tdog
    Member
    from Omaha, NE

    Hahahah. I hear ya!
     
  27. freebird101
    Joined: Feb 13, 2009
    Posts: 1,203

    freebird101
    Member

  28. zgears
    Joined: Nov 29, 2003
    Posts: 1,557

    zgears
    Member

    maybe im way off but. considering the amount of work, is it that much more time/money to just go with a quickchange center?
     
  29. tdog
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 125

    tdog
    Member
    from Omaha, NE

    My dad bought this oil for the banjo from Dick Spadaro Early Ford Reproductions. Almont, New York. 1-800-222-3248

    Front of one of the Jugs he purchased

    [​IMG]

    Back of Jug

    [​IMG]
     
  30. TBone69
    Joined: Aug 21, 2007
    Posts: 819

    TBone69
    Member
    from NJ

    Great tech thread! This will help a lot when I get to freshening up my banjo rear.

    Thanks for sharing.
     

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