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Hot Rods Driveshafts and Pinion Angle Problems

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Eric Satterfield, Aug 2, 2018.

  1. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 11,061

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo


    This guy. This guy is your answer
     
    31Vicky with a hemi likes this.
  2. If one builds a hot rod and uses a bullshit pseudo fact as a "standard" without understanding it's easy to end up with problems. In this case, using the rules trans 3* down to the rear and parallel shafts.
    Both regurgitated endlessly and a perfect way to fuck the car up and fuck yourself out of time, money, and enjoyment. Those so called rules aren't going to fit every application, while the equal U joint working angle does and the only one that matters.


    IMG_1383.JPG

    Just for a poll here, who says the top picture has a pinion pointing up?
     
  3. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 230

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Does the car need to be at ride height to get this correct even though there is no twist in the suspension?...This may answer a few more questions? IMG_0618.JPG IMG_0619.JPG
     

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  4. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,042

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    The angles are to each other, NOT TO THE WORLD. There's an over abundance of opinions that think it's from true 0. 31 Vic is right, working angles. Sometimes communication doesn't spell that out fully so if that's what some are saying don't take it to heart.

    After the pictures, I'd have an additional hole in the forward mount and get whatever I needed. The hole might be up or down from what's there to "get there from here" and achieve a working angle. You're not too far off, in fact it's almost home.
     
  5. This visual aid is wrong.
    I wish it would go away.
    Please don't use it as a reference.
    Read the descriptions and the errors will be apparent.
    The pinion is pointing in the same direction as the engine , the last one is clearly level or at zero
    IMG_1384.JPG
     
  6. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 11,061

    Tim
    Member
    from Raytown Mo


    Id say yes.

    Based on a few things but also on the idea that you previously set it up not at ride height and then when installed it’s wrong.
     
  7. Joe H
    Joined: Feb 10, 2008
    Posts: 901

    Joe H
    Member

    Maybe it was said already, but drill a new mounting hole higher up in the forward mounts, that will change the pinion angle. Since it's not a race car with sticky tires, the ladder bar mounting locations shouldn't hurt the way it drives.
     
  8. This opportunity right here is your very best cure for your problem. Don't miss it!
    The Wizzard
     
    Hombre likes this.
  9. The Shift Wizard
    Joined: Jan 10, 2017
    Posts: 1,955

    The Shift Wizard
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Maybe you're doing this already, but just in case......
    (Now, this is just me because I'm not Superman), so......
    First, take the traction bars out of the equation by disconnecting them so there no influence on the axle or suspension. Then set the driveline angles, etc. When that's all sorted out and driving sweet, you can hook up the traction bars and adjust them as needed. Don't try and do both at the same time.

    I'm not a "suspension guy" that has seen it all. so I'm not positive if those "bars" you have there are actually part of your basic suspension or not. I don't want to misguide you because I'm too dim to post valid info.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
  10. Da Tinman
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 4,226

    Da Tinman
    Member


    Ok, I'll be nice this time...... My response was to the guy suggesting that a CV driveshaft would fix the problem. With CV driveshaft you have to point the pinion at the transmission or transfer case. The pinion angle and the driveshaft angle should be the same and both should point straight at the output of the transmission or you will not only have vibrations but also have the possibility of the driveshaft coming apart at speed. WRONG? Not in the fucking least. Have a nice day. 102_2230.JPG
     
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  11. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 230

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Ok....I currently have the frame supported on jack stands and removed the bolts holding the rear spring in the mount to allow the rear down on jack stands also..By removing the traction bar/control arm bolts and allowing it to swing up I gained 4 degrees of angle..If only it will stay there..I have to go get a 5/8 bit tomorrow to drill the higher hole in the bracket. It looks as if the spring mounts will need some tweaking in order to get the spring back in the mount at the new angle.All hopes this will cure the problem.Thank you all again
     

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  12. Da Tinman
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 4,226

    Da Tinman
    Member

    Ok so how big are those joints at the front? how are they mounted, tab on both sides or just the outsides? When you cycle the suspension does that arm ever make contact with the frame? Ladder bar or does it have upper arms too?
     
    Unkl Ian likes this.
  13. 1946caddy
    Joined: Dec 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,664

    1946caddy
    Member
    from washington

    Can anyone explain how the rear spring works being flat like it is?
     
  14. Well, Mr. "nice" Tin man. I never suggested that a double cardan would solve all his problems I simply pointed out that one has more latitude with a double joint. All the other rules still apply. Your statement that the angles have to be the same and the pinion has to point at the transmission makes zero sense. Your choice of a handle is appropriate.
     
  15. Happydaze
    Joined: Aug 21, 2009
    Posts: 935

    Happydaze
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Not what the OP wants to hear in view of the difficulties and costs he's had getting to this point, but lets say the pinion issue is resolved with the suggestions already made, and the car is then put to use (notwitstanding the soon to be introduced spring bind and any other associated issues). How long will it be before there's a failure of someting resulting from the truck arm type links mounted to the framerails? Sorting it out properly now is the solution for a happy (and safe) life, isn't it?
    Chris
     
    RMR&C likes this.
  16. clem
    Joined: Dec 20, 2006
    Posts: 2,860

    clem
    Member

    Sounds like this will work
     
  17. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 230

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Sorry this thread has caused conflict between members..I had always wanted a 32 Ford and even though it's frowned upon by some a clone of the " Graffiti Car"..My experience has been with 1950s-1970's Chevrolets and Ford's..I had never owned a street rod until this one. I am competent enough to weld a lawnmower deck or something of that nature but not an item ones's life depends on. I got took when I bought this car and I am reminded daily of it by my wife and family. This rear end issue is not the only problem I have experienced and had to repair..I won't bore anyone with the list. I have been reading the threads on this board about pinion angle for weeks before I joined yesterday. To answer a few questions. The lower arms have a single heim joint mounted to a single tab bracket welded to the inside of the frame with a 5/8 bolt....The rear spring has some but not much arch when it's secured to the crossmember..I had to wedge the driver's side to get the car to sit level. Some pics of my body off restored 55 I sold to buy this piece of shit..And yes I did all of the work except for spraying the outer body paint.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
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  18. Happydaze
    Joined: Aug 21, 2009
    Posts: 935

    Happydaze
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Thinking aloud, presumably the spring mount on the crossmember could be (wedge) shimmed to eliminate the spring bind thus avoiding making alterations to the spring mounts on the axle? Still concerned by the lack of flex in the truck arm arrangement though. particularly as we've now learned it's mounted with heims.

    To the OP, don't be despondent, you'll get there and the help from this place will be enormous, with some differences of opinion along the way. Enjoy the ride!

    Chris
     
  19. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 15,515

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I think we have given a solution to fix the poor guy's minor problem (the pinion angle and maybe driveshaft length), but the problem of the arms being too wide at the front and causing stresses during big articulation will probably make his head explode.

    He already said his wife is riding his hide about the fixes the car needs, lets not suggest he rips the whole rearend out and builds a total new suspension system.

    This type of system worked okay for Milner (he did lose the race though), so it will probably outlast his time with this coupe.
     
    Just Gary, milwscruffy and RMR&C like this.
  20. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 230

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Someone had sent me a private message about axle tube distortion and somehow I deleted it ( Thank You for sending)....Anyway I understand what he meant as this happened the last time my wife and I went for a road test after the housing was rotated by the shop..We live a mile up a single lane road hollow on a farm..This happened about midway out so we didn't have to walk far to get the truck and trailer...She was pissed.....The 4x2 Rochester set up that was on the car was pouring so much fuel that one of our road tests trying to fix and figure the noise out. We ran out of gas as it used nearly 6 gallons on a 9 mile trip....I could go on and on....Also I didn't get enough out of the 55 to buy this so I am still paying for the difference at the bank ( Another strain on a 31 year marriage..lol ) Things were more simple back in the early 80s working on a 55 and 65 327/365 hp under the car cover
     

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  21. Insult to injury with losing an axle.. this the latest development? That would explain a noise issue. Hopefully the housing is ok.
     
  22. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 230

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    That was a road test to determine if the noise was in fact still there after I got the car back from the shop several days later...I picked it up from the facility on my trailer because it had been raining here and my road I live on isn't good..Just about everything than can go wrong to a car has in fact with this thing...
     
  23. dirt t
    Joined: Mar 20, 2007
    Posts: 4,601

    dirt t
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Kingman,AZ
    1. HAMB Old Farts' Club

    In my experance with an engine conversions, with the chassis at ride height and engine level at carberator mounting surface anglefinder on end of transmission output shaft it will indicate 3* down.
    Now let's mount the rearend.
    Based on a 3* down on trans the rearend should be 3* up.
    By placing the angle finder on face of rearend housing (3rd member out) and housing resting on jack stands rotate housing for a 3* up angle weld brackets to housing.
    IMPORTANT!!! Before assembly check to be sure housing is not warped from welding. This should be done anytime you weld on an axle housing. (Rear wheel bearings will be a problem)
    Now that that is done you have to make sure you did not put spring,shackles in a bind. I set crossmember at 3* to match housing angles.
    Have driveshaft made with trans yolk 1" from bottoming out at trans. The driveshaft if not made properly can also cause vibrations.
    You have a lot going on so MAKE A PLAN!
    think it out.
    Correct driveshaft angle, make sure the rear suspension is not in a bind.
    Fix driveshaft.
    Drive and enjoy.
     
    pitman likes this.
  24. Well Eric, welcome the Hot Rod World! What your experiencing is called "Initiation by Fire". We've all had a bit of this treatment but probably not all at once. A 31 year marriage is generally pretty durable. I suggest changing the Worry of what next to a good sense of humor and a "let's go see what's next" outlook. It's a shame there are so many Car Pimps and poor Craftsman out there in the Car World. It's a learning curve we never get all the way around.
    Your going to enjoy the Coupe once you get it road worthy so I say adjust the outlook a bit and just Laugh then pass it over to your Wife and hang in there. Fun cost Money, how much fun can you afford?
    The Wizzard
     
    clem likes this.
  25. Da Tinman
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 4,226

    Da Tinman
    Member

    This make it easier for you? Also what do you mean by latitude?? All other rules do NOT apply to a CV/double cardon shaft completely different animal.


    cv_angle.gif

    https://www.google.com/search?q=dou...lNHcAhVBxoMKHSA8C2oQ_AUICigB&biw=1920&bih=894
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
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  26. GuyW
    Joined: Feb 23, 2007
    Posts: 541

    GuyW
    Member

    I hope this additional complication isn't present in this member's car, but just a general note that pumpkins and/or engines may not be LATERALLY located on a car's centerline...
     
  27. Do the formulas change when you run a CV double carden joint in the driveshaft? My engine/transmission sit at 4 degrees down hill (negative) and the driveshaft and rearend sit at zero degrees.
     
  28. Da Tinman
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 4,226

    Da Tinman
    Member


    Yes. See above diagrams.
     
  29. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 3,459

    Budget36
    Member

    I'm a simple man. I'd see what the tranny angle is.

    Then (while the suspension is loaded) see what the pinon angle is.

    Then, I do some simple subtraction to see where my pinion angle should be.

    i/e Loaded I see tranny at -3 degrees

    Loaded I see rearend at -4 debreees,

    So means I should have the pinion goin "up" 7 degrees to get things correct.

    So, if I unload the suspension, I don't care a hoot what I read at the pinion ...I just point it up 7 degrees.

    so then after welding it all back together and putting it back on the ground, I'd have a parallel setup.

    I'm no expert, and only had to do this a few tines, but has worked fine for me.
     
  30. Someone draw this up?
    Anyone with some fancy ass cad equipment?
    How about figuring out the u joint working angles with it.
    I'd do it the old fashioned way for the group but nobody likes my doodles.
    Before you do this,
    Look at this photo...
    image.jpeg

    image.jpeg

    The verbiage stated would lead one to believe the transmission and the pinion are running the same direction. Trans negative, drive shaft negative, the pinion negative,, right?????
    Well that pinion is going up hill to the rear. Let's assume the numbers are right, and just the NEG/POS description is bassackwards. Remember the working angle of the ujoint need to be , it important, it's imperative they are equal. The front joint's working angle is 0.3* the rear ujoints working angle is 7.4*. Grossly un equal.

    The Internet crap about Trans down, pinion up is missing the part where you turn yourself and your angle finder around an do the Hokies pokies. Fuck it pisses me off to no end. That because guys do this shit above,,, I got news for you guys, that pinion is up, it's not negative it's positive. That rear ujoint angle is botched but good. The pinion needs rotated 7* just to start getting close. All the brackets need to get cut off and redone,,,bars, hangers, shocks.
    From what I gather here is that it was already cut loose and rotated 7* - it needs 7* more.

    I'm not kidding, get that thing up here to Ohio if you want it fixed right.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
    Just Gary, egads, RMR&C and 1 other person like this.

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