Register now to get rid of these ads!

Technical Drive Train Resuscitation Basics

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Fan Attic, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. Well, after years of watching young folks come and go on here all looking for help reviving their "dream car" that hasn't run in years, needs everything, looks horrible, but it was what they could afford, I thought it might be nice to gather up some reference material that may be useful, regardless of year, make or model (so long at it has no computer and runs on gasoline).
    I'll selfishly start with a pretty good example that followed me home a few weeks ago as it had many of the problems derelict projects share. I, like many, should never look at Craigslist, particularly on a Friday night after beverages, but, you know.
    So I see this old truck in the background of a photo of another vehicle I was mildly interested in one night and text the seller to see if the advertised item is still available. "Nope, sold it a couple hours ago". So I says "what's the plan for the old corn binder in the background?" He replies that "It's going on Craigslist tommorow". Uh Oh. "So what do you suppose that old thing is worth?" I ask. He replies with a number less than I expected so I reply "Sold! I'll be there tomorrow with some money". Boy does that make the War Department excited!
    It was a little blustery the next day so the only picture I got was at the truck stop where we stopped for lunch. The seller had the drive line out of it so we could push it around with his back hoe, though he assured me the engine was not stuck. With 5 flat tires I was glad his back hoe started. Had to winch it into the shop off the trailer, if you ever build a shop be sure to add chain pockets in the concrete floor!
    I'll get into the details next post.
    35 Binder 7.jpg 35 Binder 8.jpg
     
  2. Petejoe
    Joined: Nov 27, 2002
    Posts: 12,264

    Petejoe
    Member
    from Zoar, Ohio

    Need old truck. That grille is the cats ass. What are your plans?
     
    6inarow and Clay Belt like this.
  3. Bandit Billy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2014
    Posts: 12,286

    Bandit Billy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I like it. Ole' one eye.
     
  4. J. A. Miller
    Joined: Dec 30, 2010
    Posts: 2,057

    J. A. Miller
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Central NY

    I always thought that they were a nice looking truck.
     
    zzford likes this.

  5. Yea, you might say it was "love at first sight". A buddy has had a really rough one for decades and it will probably never see the road again. I have often been accused of irrational optimism so I decided this one was going around the block under it's own power or I would die trying, or something like that. So, here we go, back to the topic at hand!
    First order of business, on any such revival (the way I do it) is an inventory of what you are starting with. That sometimes means going backwards a little, or a lot, before you can go forward. In this case, once I figured out why the left side of the truck was all apart (combination bent fender, running board and side curtain, and broken wood under the cab) I patiently oiled all the fasteners on what was left to be taken apart and waited.
    Not really, I stuck the crank handle in the nose and jumped up and down on it until my feet hurt, to no avail. That night my motor head Son-in-Law came over and after surveying the situation, sipping a couple "attention focusing beverages", and trying the crank handle again and seeing the fan wiggle, he tried the handle while I pushed in the clutch pedal. Hey, the guy was right, motor wasn't stuck, the transmission was. Couldn't even move the shifter in any direction. Pulled the top loader cover off the 1935 four speed and the reason was obvious, decades of condensation had turned the gear set into a solid chunk. Pretty surprised the clutch actually disengaged after seeing that, but this is southern Idaho, where tin worms take a long time to mature.

    35 Binder 9.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
  6. So, with much jubilation we proceeded to plan the coolest truck to round the block in our life, finished all the toxic libation I had and didn't get much else done. That is part of the process.
    The next day I dropped the transmission and found a "salvageable" throw out bearing and clutch assembly, after a little cleaning and lubrication. I applied lots of the "secret sauce" ( old ATF and acetone) to the inside of the transmission and set it out of the way and turned to the engine. The hand crank was real hard to use to do a compression check so after the spark plugs would unscrew after lots more secret sauce, I decided to remove the starter to see if it may have any life left. The multi generations of rodents calling the clutch housing and starter "home" hadn't helped things but with a little wire brush and emery cloth work the old starter eventually returned to the living, which made a compression test much easier. REALLY Good jumper cables direct to the starter off a fresh, fully charged battery will either spin the engine or break something trying. In this case the engine spun.
    35 Binder 2.jpg
    So, back on topic. Once you have confirmed the crankshaft will rotate, the block looks intacted, anything attached to the block is out of the way or appears to be able to work as designed, you should see if your engine pumps air. In this case, my crusty old "Green Diamond" would only make 40 psi in the number 6 hole, the other 5 have nothin! Such is life, don't be discouraged, yet. I applied lots of secret sauce into each spark plug hole, spun the plugs back in and decided to take the fender and flat tires off to make access easier. I had some other tires that looked better too, just needed a young guy to break down the old split rims and swap them.

    35 Binder 1.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
  7. KustomKreeps
    Joined: Jan 7, 2016
    Posts: 324

    KustomKreeps
    Member

    Sounds like it will be a good story. Will grab a beverage just to keep hydrated and follow along.
     
  8. Now with better access I was able to break down the engine bay to just what was needed to see if the engine would ever run again. Back to the inventory part of this topic. The chassis electrical system, at least what was left, was useless except for patterns and connector types. The cooling system had some issues but had potential. The fuel system looked pretty good except for the broken throttle shaft on the carburetor, and the air cleaner hoses which were laying in the cab, kind of. Have you ever seen a 2&1/2" wrapped tar paper hose?
    Ignition was a little rough, the distributor shaft spun like it should, the cap and rotor cleaned up with a little work, but the points were not going to be recoverable, rust had consumed the strap from the coil post to the contacts. The 5 solid wire plug wires that were there had big cracks in the insulation, the coil wire was burned in half and the coil was ballooned.
    No problem, ANYBODY that has been addicted as long as me has most of that "junk" laying around, and thanks to Ebay you can buy NOS 1935 International points, delivered for $8. I had a beat up old Rochester 1 barrel that fit the intake flange, and was able to clean it up and get it resealed. Let me know if you need a cleaned and functional 1935 Stromberg "BV" core that needs a throttle shaft.
    5 days of oiling the cylinders and valves with the secret sauce and spinning the engine with the plugs out occasionally and I have 60-90 psi on all but #5. Had to reach in and push a couple valves closed with a brake adjusting tool but once they started to move they decided to keep moving. Time for adding some spark and fuel to that air!
    Back on topic, Gasoline is very dangerous! Respect it like your crazy Mother-in-Law or it will bite you when you aren't looking, or something like that. I built a little "nurse tank" that will attach to most any carburetor with the right fittings, out of a junk GM frame mounted fuel filter and the connected piece of 3/8" steel fuel line. Even filled up it is far enough from the carburetor to be safe when the engine backfires, most of the time! Fill the carburetor fuel bowl through the vent tube with an old wood glue bottle, washed clean and filled with gas of course. This will let you know if there is hope, or you need more beer. Make sure there is something resembling a lubricant in the crankcase before you try to make smoke the first time. It doesn't take long to ruin what ever potential you started with if you run without oil.
    You've all heard of "hot wiring" a car, all that means is a full voltage source, 6 VDC or 12 VDC to the + terminal on the coil. For a test it doesn't even matter (to me) what voltage battery you use, as long as it has plenty of amps! The old Binder was a 6 volt, positive ground system. I wired it 12 volt negative ground because I hate blowing up batteries when I forget "this one needs to be different". A 14 or 16 gage wire long enough to reach and with the right connectors on the end will work, I like a 6' piece of red wire with alligator clips on both ends but a scrap of speaker wire twisted onto what ever you need connected will work too.

    35 Binder 13.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
    Ford52PU, Hnstray and RMR&C like this.
  9. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,941

    squirrel
    Member

    this looks like fun! sorta like that 28 chevy I got going a while back...
     
  10. Thanks for the link Jim, I try to read everything you post here. I guess I started feeling guilty about all the "free" wisdom I've been soaking up for so long. I'm not sure it's obvious, but my hope was a "new guy" could struggle through what this becomes and have a better idea of how to approach a "black box" of unknown problems in an attempt to revive a dream. There are several current examples that most of us peak at and shake our heads.
    Spoiler alert, she made it around the block today, sort of.
    But that isn't my intent here. What I hope to get recorded is how to get anything with an internal combustion engine with any hope of running again back to life. That helps answer all sorts of other decisions on the journey to making the dream come true. Sure the old corn binder is one sexy vixen, but I could have just as easily started with a 1973 AMC Matador (just puked a little). I just wouldn't have been quite as motivated but all the same principles apply.
    I'm counting on the rest of you grease under your nails, forgot to shower this week, no idea what Facebook is for addicts to fill in all the blanks I forgot or assumed everyone already knows.
    I'll add more tomorrow. Thanks for looking.
     
    Clay Belt, Hnstray and RMR&C like this.
  11. Great story.....always fun to bring some old dead engine back to life. I learned how from my dad, he was the king of making something from nothing.
     
  12. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,695

    56sedandelivery
    Member Emeritus

    Neat ol' truck for sure, and that trailer looks like it could handle any job; especially the lift. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
  13. shivasdad
    Joined: May 27, 2007
    Posts: 584

    shivasdad
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Texas

    I'm watching. Neat truck.
     
  14. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 6,250

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    How did that grill survive for so long with so little damage? Neat truck, I've got a 1935 Dodge truck waiting for me to pick up in Oklahoma. It's not in as good of condition as what your Binder is.
     
    Dave Downs likes this.
  15. Thanks for looking folks, and thanks for the comments. Now back to the show.
    Once you've determined your engine will pump air, even if only on most of the cylinders, you need to find a way to make the spark plugs spark. In this case I was able to restore function to the distributor with some cleaning and an $8 set of points. I just temporarily connected some old spark plug wires, set an old coil I had in the pile on the frame and hot wired it to the battery, and cleaned and gapped the spark plugs and it all worked well enough for the first test. A carburetor is nice but as CarbKing points out, you can make one run pouring gas out of an old boot.
    So, with the three basic necessities for combustion in place (compressed air, fuel and spark) I "let her buck".
    Note, try to ensure you don't have anything a smoldering rodent can catch on fire near the exhaust outlet during this first test. It doesn't always happen, but it has happened! And ether is your friend, at least for this test. After a few pops, groans and rumbles the old Green Diamond started to breath. The more it barked the better is sounded, and more heat it generated until after 8-10 tries the last of the sticky valves started to open and close like they need to and "Houston, we have ignition"! Visualize the crowd going wild!
    Now on to the next critical step to make it move itself. And my apologies to all the sources of H.A.M.B. wisdom I have and will plagiarize here, the secret sauce recipe, carburetor tweaking, broken bolt removal, rust removal, metal finishing techniques and many other processes all came from or were refined from information read here. Thank you all for your contributions. Please feel free to add links as @squirrel has done, or cut and paste pertinent excerpts from your previous contributions, along with any new ideas, tricks and tips.
    More later.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
    Ford52PU, zzford and Hnstray like this.
  16. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Great write up......very informative and I love your humorous ‘turn of phrase’......:D keep ‘em coming!

    Ray
     
  17. All I can assume is that the original owner knew how to take care of his assets. She really is a pretty straight old girl for 82. Did you notice the owner built right outside rear view mirror?
    I had the stainless grill trim straightened and polished by a friend of mine since the last picture and now it really looks good! Also, I have talked to the original owner's son-in-law who found me the other headlight in the old family barn and he thinks he might be able to find the original title.
     
    Petejoe and Hnstray like this.
  18. cool project,...those are the best lookin trucks in the mid-30's period,...good luck with it...
    ...here's a sketch I did of one,..."Cyrus & Leander" were the McCormick brothers who's business morphed into International Harvester Co.
    art 2018 045.jpg
     
    louisb, Ron Funkhouser and Hnstray like this.
  19. Cool sketch @Rusty, and I agree, the McCormick brothers "nailed it" if that was a term back then. Mine is a C-30 one and a half ton so the front wheel openings are are a little bigger than a pickup, but she is certainly a sister of the one you rendered.
    Anyway, Now that the old Green Diamond can fill the shop with smoke it was time to see what is needed next. If she's going to move there needs to be something between the engine and the drive axle. The crash box that was in there didn't have a familiar mounting bolt pattern so I couldn't go grab something out of the pile to replace it, and the original didn't look too promising. However "ya never know until ya know", so I bribed a buddy to come help throw it on the bench and the fight started. I oiled, heated, chilled and beat on that old POS for a couple days but eventually it came around to my way of thinking and things started to happen.
    The shift tower was easy, pull the shift lever out and put the dirty end it in a ziploc of white vinegar. Drop the rest of that chunk in a 5 gallon bucket of vinegar ($1.84/gl on sale at the restaurant supply place). The gear box however didn't fit in anything I had handy so a quart of secret sauce, half a bottle of MAP gas and a couple regrinds on my 3/4" brass drift punch later and the input and output shafts literally fell out on the bench. I did have to score the outside edge of the outer race on the output bearing and break it away to drive the balls out of it, but once that end freed up the other end took hardly any time at all. The counter shaft, after watching the punishment the main shaft endured, surrendered after only half an hour of beating.
    So back to our topic, life is hard, don't give up just because something doesn't go like you thought it would. You can overcome difficult problems if you decide you will, or you'll die trying, or something like that.
    The gear set and shafts eventually went into another 5 gallon bucket of vinegar for 4 or 5 days and the case got a thorough scrubbing with a wire cone in a die grinder. Note, wear a dust mask and shop apron when derusting an old cast iron transmission case or your significant other will make you go outside and wash when you try and come in the house.
    Sorry, my arms were too tired to lift the camera after all that, and I know, no pictures and it didn't happen, but here is what I've got. The last picture is all sealed with new input and output bearings, output shaft seal, and a PTO blank plate out of the pile. The PTO didn't seem worth the effort since I don't plan to return it to hauling sugar beets and taters any time soon. Note, don't get hung up on year, make and model searches for replacement parts. As far as I can tell you can't buy parts for a 1935 International C-30 4 speed transmission, but plug the dimensions into Goggle and the magic of technology instantly shows you what you need is a standard product at any good bearing house. Sure wish I had that when I was starting out! Of course counter men were better then, generally, at least that is what I remember. More later.
    35 Binder 10.jpg 35 Binder 11.jpg 35 Binder 12.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
    48fordnut, Ford52PU, 40LUV and 3 others like this.
  20. King ford
    Joined: Mar 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,477

    King ford
    Member
    from 08302

    Great so far!...gotta love an old truck!
     
  21. indyjps
    Joined: Feb 21, 2007
    Posts: 5,377

    indyjps
    Member

    Fan Attic, thank you for taking the time to post up details, resurrection threads are great. Lets see some more.
     
    zzford likes this.
  22. Thanks for looking guys, this is actually sort of fun! Anyway, back on topic, now we have some level of engine function and what looks to be an acceptable power transmission device that fits so let's see what we can fix while we have lots of room. For a test drive we need tires that hold air, some way to stop, some way to steer, a safe larger volume fuel system, and at least a basic electrical system that will allow us to make the engine stop running if necessary. Engine cooling also needs to be restored eventually. Everything beyond that right now is extra.
    In this case I needed at least two good tires for the front, the rear duals would roll without much air in them so off to the farm tire guy to swap the two worst 80 year old tires for a pair of 50 year olds I had in the pile. If you're a young guy go buy a bead breaker hammer and do this yourself as it is expensive, but get an old guy to assemble the split rims, preferably an old guy who has done it a bunch of times and still has both his arms. Split rims can be dangerous!
    35 Binder 5.jpg
    Brakes, there should be some serious thought given to brakes. In my case the master cylinder was still under the cab and didn't look too bad, but the rear brake line was smashed and rolled over onto itself about 5' back, and the soft lines at the front wheels were probably originals and would not be "liquid tight". Since I was still unsure of how far this would go I decided the transmission mounted parking brake would be enough for the next test.
    Close inspection of the steering components found that system in pretty good shape for 82. Just needed a lube job, much like most 82 year olds. So on to the electrical. I try to use what is there when I can so I pulled the ignition switch out of the dash after discovering it would turn with a screwdriver, and low and behold, the switch functioned electrically as well. It is a pretty simple mechanism and after a little messing around I was able to get the tumbler plug out of the housing and dang if the broken off key wasn't still in the hole. I got lucky as the key blank was still used today for locking gas caps, so new 1935 International key, $2.85. Good locksmiths are very handy.

    35 Binder 6.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
    Ford52PU likes this.
  23. There are tons of basic electrical diagrams posted here so hopefully one of our more tech savvy contributors can link their work to this thread. After 50 years of wrenching I knew we needed a switched power source to the coil + terminal to enable and disable the spark. Breaker points don't live long on full 12VDC so a ballast resistor or other voltage reducer helps longevity, but can hinder ease of starting. A switched full voltage source for starting is nice so I was able to get the wires unscrewed from the headlight switch, pretty much by brail since I only have one big neck bone now, and test to see if it still functioned. Lucky again!
    So, just run a 12VDC wire to the key switch and headlight switch, take the output from the key switch to the ballast resistor and then from there to the coil +. Wire the switched output from the old headlight switch directly to the coil + and then coil - to the distributor. If this were a start solenoid equipt system there would usually be a full voltage switched source for starting available on the solenoid, but the theory is the same with either configuration.

    35 Binder 26.jpg
    The high current supply to the starter in this case is a floor mounted push button. It still worked too so new battery cable ends (someone had adjusted mine with a hatchet too many times) and cleaned ends on the other starter cable ends and we no longer need the jumper cables, just a fresh battery. In this case the battery tray/box didn't have a bottom so I called "Battery Boxes-R-Us" and had them send me a new 1935 International box.
    Not really, I have a few tools around and a neighbor with a good sheet metal brake, so I used the old one for a pattern and bent up a replacement. 35 Binder 4.jpg 35 Binder 3.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
    Ford52PU, 40LUV and Hnstray like this.
  24. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 7,175

    73RR
    Member

    ...amazing progress...!

    .
     
    Hnstray likes this.
  25. While she still had no tires, no fenders, no left side running board, no floors, seat or transmission in place it was easy to remove the remnants of the exhaust system, the PTO and hydraulic pump components, and decades of "temporary repairs" all over the cab and frame. Also a great time to see what we can use for an air/fuel system. As mentioned, this one had a little carburetor problem so I had to install another carb that I had in the pile, and modify the foot feed linkage to connect it all. A liberal dose of secret sauce on the old choke cable got it to eventually free up. A vinegar bath and paint for the air cleaner pipe, pressure wash and paint the oil bath air cleaner, some new hose, and the air side was done. It took a little scraping but I found and removed the fuel pump/fuel filter unit and after some cleaning and cutting some new gaskets it appeared functional so it went back on the engine.
    The fuel tanks in anything this old are never any good, but I pulled this one out from under the seat and gave it a look anyway. Never say never, this one was nearly perfect. Someone had apparently drained and flushed it for storage when she was put to bed, or they quit using it when someone twisted the stem out of the stop cock. Except for the broken off stop cock at the fuel line connection and a rotted fuel sender float it was beautiful! I rinsed it out, installed a new fuel shut off valve, blew the leaf cutter bee nests out of the fuel line and put it back just like the McCormicks had built it. And it worked!

    35 Binder 27.jpg 35 Binder 28.jpg 35 Binder 29.jpg
     
    Ford52PU, 40LUV and Hnstray like this.
  26. Terraizer
    Joined: Jul 18, 2006
    Posts: 521

    Terraizer
    Member

  27. I had been starting it on ether with the jumper cables to show anyone who would watch during all this other stuff and the old Green Diamond just kept getting better. I got the grill trim back from Dave, you know Dave, and couldn't see any reason to not put the radiator back in the grill shell after a good flush. I found most of the radiator hose I needed in the pile, just had to buy the straight 14" long upper and weld up the rust holes in the lower steel elbow on the suction side of the water pump. My Son-in-Law helped stab the transmission back in and I got all the drive shaft parts cleaned, lubed and back in the truck. Check out this thermostat.
    Note, At this stage you should make sure anything that may rotate or otherwise be required to move freely isn't obviously broken and has some oil or grease on it. Raise the tires and make sure a brake isn't locked up or dragging, a wheel bearing isn't about to fall apart. Make sure the stuff that shouldn't move doesn't too, like motor and transmission mounts, steering box, column and steering wheel ( I had a steering wheel fall off at speed once). Check the brakes again. Call this your pre-flight check list, or something like that.
    When you are sure you are ready, give her a go. In this case I was pretty confident with the engine, transmission, axle and park brake, the tires were pretty round, even on the bottom, so I hung all the sheet metal but the hood after a little massaging and crack repair. The big day arrived and I got her running and backed her out into the sun under her own power for the first time in probably 40+ years. (Visualize crowd going wild again) I prefer to leak check the cooling system the first time outside as the cleanup is usually easier. I've always heard it's better to be lucky than good. No idea how it happened but I filled the radiator, just water the first time, and it didn't leak! The only repair needed was a pin hole in the lower elbow I missed the first time, which required draining the system again. With that fixed it was time to "run her through the gears". WoooHooo! Got her into 3rd before I ran out of driveway and gas about the same time. Only had a gallon in the tank.
    35 Binder 14.jpg 35 Binder 15.jpg 35 Binder 17.jpg 35 Binder 18.jpg 35 Binder 19.jpg 35 Binder 20.jpg 35 Binder 21.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
    Ron Funkhouser, Ford52PU and Hnstray like this.
  28. 35 Binder 23.jpg 35 Binder 24.jpg 35 Binder 25.jpg I'm sure I missed a few "must have's" in all this blather so please feel free to fill in the blanks, I'm going to go for a drive (+;!
     
  29. KustomKreeps
    Joined: Jan 7, 2016
    Posts: 324

    KustomKreeps
    Member

    Truck aside... thats a cool old screwdriver man.
     
    Clay Belt and 283john like this.
  30. Resurrection threads are the most fun, thanks for posting !
     

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.