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Technical Drilled axle in the wrong place! And more...

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Bullit68, Mar 28, 2018.

  1. alanp561
    Joined: Oct 1, 2017
    Posts: 1,003

    alanp561
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    That's a fact. The strength of any I-beam is in the flanges. Whoever drilled the holes did a really nice job of radiusing the edges of the holes. Shouldn't be any stress cracking there. You may overload the axle and break it but that's something else entirely.
     
    55styleliner likes this.
  2. CR33PZ
    Joined: Oct 6, 2010
    Posts: 2

    CR33PZ
    Member

    Im suprised that it flexed still instead of just cracking.
    I do like the look it gives though.
     
  3. zzford
    Joined: May 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,822

    zzford
    Member

    Actually, I believe the quote is : "When in doubt, whip it out".
     
  4. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 10,006

    Atwater Mike
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    It's still CAST!!!!! CAST!!!

    'Cast it away...and leave it to heaven.'
     
    chiro likes this.
  5. I got me a rock n roll band ! Its a free for all
     
    raven and dwollam like this.
  6. 49ratfink
    Joined: Feb 8, 2004
    Posts: 17,646

    49ratfink
    Member
    from California

    here's what you do. remove it, clamp it by the spring perch somehow and see if you can bend it to failure with a jack or on a press of some kind. then use the center part for a spreader bar or something.
     
  7. s55mercury66
    Joined: Jul 6, 2009
    Posts: 3,980

    s55mercury66
    Member
    from SW Wyoming

    Cast iron, or cast steel?
     
  8. Shit...sorry i just skimmed the post, your absolutely correct HRP forged axles..
    Cast... eeek

    Sent from my SM-J320ZN using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  9. Hombre
    Joined: Aug 22, 2008
    Posts: 1,024

    Hombre
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I am really bothered by one of your statements there HRP. Where you say "or sell it to someone that builds rodent rods" Is that really something you think would be the right thing to do? Just pass it along to some poor other fool and let him deal with a failure that is almost bound to happen with a cast axle. I for one cannot believe that you meant to say that. Would you clear that up a little.
     
    TagMan likes this.
  10. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 4,789

    sunbeam
    Member

    As far as the axle what does the car weigh?
     
  11. Bullit68
    Joined: Sep 16, 2009
    Posts: 91

    Bullit68
    Member
    from Verona, PA

    It’s a Superbell axle, web says says they are cast steel.

    I’m not sure of that, it’s fenderless, the bed is just a shell, SBC w/350 auto, minimal interior
     
  12. Bullit68
    Joined: Sep 16, 2009
    Posts: 91

    Bullit68
    Member
    from Verona, PA

    I wouldn’t sell the axle to anyone... I’m not a dick. But the idea of a spreader bar, or maybe a towel bar for the garage bathroom. I’ll come up with something.
    I noticed a lot of this when I looked at it, which brought it down into my price range...
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
    Hombre likes this.
  13. Bullit68
    Joined: Sep 16, 2009
    Posts: 91

    Bullit68
    Member
    from Verona, PA

    D2685771-3B76-4330-A72E-3967215105F1.jpeg 8D5E6436-2A6C-4A25-B0EC-260D540759E8.jpeg
    Here’s the next issue. No stops on the axle to keep tires from rubbing on the wishbones! I’ll have to get the stop nuts for the king pin bolts, and 45 degree fittings for the brake hoses to clear the stops. Parts of this thing look well-built, and then there is shit like this.
     
  14. The narrow axle and split bones can lead to other issues, like the one youre seeing here,
     
  15. Desmodromic
    Joined: Sep 25, 2010
    Posts: 571

    Desmodromic
    Member

    Cast steel is readily weldable, and is not brittle. For example, valves in large steam lines (3" to 20" and larger), at as much as 4000 psi pressure & 700 degrees, are typically cast carbon steel, subject to high bending stresses, and are butt welded to the adjacent piping. They are, however, poured from steel of known metallurgy and stress ratings, and certified as such from the foundry. Cast iron is a different thing, is brittle, generally cannot be welded in critical applications. (I doubt that anyone is marketing cast iron axles.) However, I wouldn't drill or weld a component of unknown metallurgy for use in a vehicle that weighed as much as the original application, unless of a certified grade. Sell it to someone building a T-bucket or a light weight Gasser.

    While true that most of the bending strength comes from the axle's flanges, the location of largest hole is exactly at the point on the axle, adjacent to the spring perch boss, where bending stress is at the maximum.
     
    Hnstray likes this.
  16. Bullit68
    Joined: Sep 16, 2009
    Posts: 91

    Bullit68
    Member
    from Verona, PA

    Thanks for all the input! I’m just going to replace it, I just don’t want gamble with this.
     
    Rex Stallion and VANDENPLAS like this.
  17. VANDENPLAS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2009
    Posts: 2,279

    VANDENPLAS
    Member

    Lol! I’ve owned a bunch of beaters where starting the car was always a gamble ( please start please start pleeeeease start c’mon Betsy ol’ Girl you got one more in ya, just this one... please!..... why are the ugly ones always called Betsy ? ) my apologies to anyone married to a Betsy I’m sure she’s a fine lady and a looker to boot !;)

    Any ways, the last thing I would want is to be questioning every pot hole and rough patch in the road if I was going to loose a wheel, not cool.
    I could not live like that.
    goings not important but stopping and steering sure is!
    A towel rack made of that would be cool, maybe see if one of the holes is the right size of a bottle opener?
    Anyways good choice for swapping it out cast iron is a no, cast steel is just slightly better. Still would not chance that.
     
  18. All metals start out as "cast" every single one of them. That sheet of 18ga was cast and all the billet crap too -all of it. The forged parts start out as being cast too and tool steel as well and the gold jewelry and coins in your pocket, the DOM tube and chrome Molly roll cages.
    It's the metallurgy and further forming process that make it what it is.
     
    rpm56, XXL__, Hnstray and 1 other person like this.
  19. VANDENPLAS
    Joined: Dec 14, 2009
    Posts: 2,279

    VANDENPLAS
    Member

    Yes 31 you are 100 % correct

    But the further forming, forging, rolling,pressing etc... change it from cast

    It’s like saying all alcohol
    Is rotten fruit or vegetables .... yes at one point, but further refining and forming turn it into bad decisions.....
    But such tasty ones


    Have a customer in the aluminum smelting business they specialize in decox aluminum , used in the steel industry to remove contamination from steel in the smelting process, multiple different formulas depending on what the end user wants in or out of the final product. And what they make as a finished product differs great also anything from dross purification. ( shit)
    To 99.99% pure aluminum.
    What do you want and what do you want to pay?


    Speed is just a question of money.... how fast you wanna go?
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  20. gene-koning
    Joined: Oct 28, 2016
    Posts: 1,753

    gene-koning
    Member

    I am a welder. The axle is a good cast steel piece, welding the holes closed will bring it back to its original strength. The two holes at the upward bend would be the ones I would be most concerned about. I would make a plug the same thickness as the axle webbing, and the same diameter as those corner holes. Then bevel the edges of the plugs and weld them into the holes at the upward bends of the axle.

    Then I'd fix the spring issue and the steering stop issue, and whatever else isn't right and drive it. It doesn't sound like its a heavy ride, and it hasn't fail yet with all these things working against it. But that would be me.

    If your concerned, replace it. Nothing takes away the fun of a hot rod faster then having a concern about something on it. Gene
     
    pitman and s55mercury66 like this.
  21. Hombre
    Joined: Aug 22, 2008
    Posts: 1,024

    Hombre
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I am always surprised at some of the stuff I read. I fail to see, or understand how anyone who has been a member of the HAMB for any length of time and has not read and seen just how dangerous a cast axle "CAN" be. The are more than a few threads on this very subject, it has been spoken too a lot. So many times that sometimes it seems like we all are beating that dead horse once again, and then another thread will come along and people are saying on in the "Right" application they are just fine, or my buddy has been running one for 10 years and no problems.

    Then I remember all of those pictures of destroyed Hot Rods and the broken cast axles in some of those and I wonder how can this be? I wonder why would anyone run one? Is it the cost? Hell a genuine original Henry Ford Forged axle, that can be twisted into a pretzel and not break ( remember that picture?) dropped and from a well known supplier only cost $250 and the core is just $50. So I cannot be the money. So what is the reasoning behind running one of the Cast pieces of junk?

    And I have seen so many fail I don't give a flying shit if its cast Steel, cast iron or cast hamburgers they are Dangerous and that is that.
     
    chiro and King ford like this.
  22. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 1,373

    Beanscoot
    Member

    It's a peculiar thing to see the safety speeches followed by:

    "Protected people will never be able to understand the "Intensity" life CAN be lived at. To do that you must completely and totally understand the meaning of the word "DUCK""
     
  23. mgtstumpy
    Joined: Jul 20, 2006
    Posts: 7,949

    mgtstumpy
    Member

    upload_2018-3-29_9-10-27.png
    No, IMHO you're asking for disaster. That will then become the weak link adjacent to the boss and eventually fail as all the weight is on the perch bolt area and pushing down. The cantilever effect will exacerbate the force as the holes will reduce the strength of the webbing and I-beam as it will no longer have its structural integrity. I might look cool however if you did stress modelling as in 'C' notch design you'd see the areas of high stress. Like hydrogen embrittlement with chromed components in stressed conditions (Stub axles), failure would be sudden and would have disastrous consequences.
     
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  24. dirt t
    Joined: Mar 20, 2007
    Posts: 4,587

    dirt t
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Kingman,AZ
    1. HAMB Old Farts' Club

    What he said^^^
     
  25. chiro
    Joined: Jun 23, 2008
    Posts: 832

    chiro
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    ^^^The Hombre is the MAN. He said it so well. I did a LOT of research on this when I was learning about these types of hot rods and planning my build. After seeing the pictures and hearing the stories of failed cast axles, there is NO WAY I would ever run one. Take it out and throw it out.
    -Andy
     
    bobss396 likes this.
  26. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 3,975

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    Strictly, the beam strength is in the flanges subject to the beam depth being maintained, as is done by the web. Without the web the upper chord (or flange) buckles downwards under compression, and there goes your beam depth.

    Expressed differently, using the web to tie the top chord to the bottom chord reduces the effective slenderness of the top chord.

    IIRC shear strength is largely a function of cross-sectional area, of which the web does contribute a bit.

    As regards the offending hole, I'd say the question to ask is, How will it fail? Will the hole get pulled oval due to shear forces? Will the bottom chord snap? Or will something else happen? (It seems quite an obvious way to go about it to me but for some reason engineers regard interrogating failure modes as a radical approach.)
     
    willys36 likes this.
  27. deathrowdave
    Joined: May 27, 2014
    Posts: 2,126

    deathrowdave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NKy

    Forged is my only choice , in front axles . The question is if you purchase a true forged axle , how and where do you have it strength / road rated tested ? A cast iron axle is a wall hanger , a cast steel axle is a driver , just don’t punch it full of holes ,a forged axle a true piece of American craftsmanship , do what you want to it and enjoy it. Just remember be as safe as possible . If an unknowing person gets hurt it’s terrible , if a knowing person allows it to happen they are responsible . Sheet metal can be repaired / replaced , life is still in the research stages . Be safe and enjoy the ride .


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  28. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 13,284

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Many years ago I ordered a Chassis Engineering forged axle for my roadster, they said they were in the process of retooling and that they couldn't promise a delivery date.
    Took nearly a year to get it, best $200 I've ever spent, I would pay $300 and wait again!
     
  29. AULIZ
    Joined: Oct 28, 2005
    Posts: 946

    AULIZ
    Member

    Buy new Forged axle (magnum, socal...). Not expensive and more safety in trafic.
     
  30. I believe Magnum axles were the ones that were breaking a while back - im pretty sure they are cast not forged.
     
    Unkl Ian and X38 like this.

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