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Technical Drawing a line in the sand

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by porknbeaner, Jun 14, 2014.

  1. I have 2 Deuces,nether one is traditional in the purest sense,my sedan has 100% Henry sheet metal and was built long before the Hamb came along but at the time I built it I guess I subscribed to the resto rod look,,the suspension is a hodgepodge of the current offerings of that time.

    If I was to build the car today it would be different.

    My pickup on the other hand adheres more to the traditional thought process,but it too is not built for the purist...

    My cars were not built for anyone but me.HRP
    ProEnfo likes this.
  2. gearheadbill
    Joined: Oct 11, 2002
    Posts: 1,303


    That about says it all for me
  3. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 4,161

    from Berry, AL

    I'm kinda in the same boat with you, my 47 Lincoln wasn't exactly a mainstream kind of car that was customized or modded back in the day. Sure, the pre- war Zephyr's were highly desirable, still are, but the post war cars just didn't have the styling that the pre- war cars did. I don't figure many were turned into hot rods, maybe a few were customs, but I'd say not many. So, other than having similar body lines to other cars of the same era, not much to compare as to being "correct". Outside, a few custom touches such as removing the bumper over riders, moving the license plate from the trunk lid to the rear bumper, and removing a few emblems will be as far as I go. Inside, the stock bellybutton 75 350 SBC will stay until I can swap it for a 302 or 351W to restore it's bloodline. Only a few dress up pieces, finned valve covers and breather, aluminum intake, everything else stays pretty much hidden. It still has the the I beam front end, un-split wishbone, but parallel leafs and Ford 8" in the rear. It is to be a dependable driver that looks the part, imperfect paint and all. It will get new shiney paint, but with me doing it, I know it won't be perfect. :D Later on, a set of Torque Thrusts or slots will find their way on it. It will still have the looks and feel of a 47, with just a few improvements, just like folks did back in the day. No billet parts, but newer safety and reliability stuff. It won't win any awards, but my reward is knowing I did it myself and enjoying driving it.
    racingonerobb likes this.
  4. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,522

    Blue One
    from Alberta

    With the wind in the desert, the sand always shifts around making drawing any lines pretty much useless :D
  5. 40fordtudor
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,503


    the body, bumpers, trim----that's it. Most on the HAMB would want nothing to do with my car. I've made it a habit to APPRECIATE most all cars. Especially the safety and reliability items.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2014
    Spoggie likes this.
  6. tfeverfred
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 15,796


    You know what? I was waiting for a comment like this. If you knew me or had even read some of my posts about this tired, weathered, redundant topic, you'd know that MY car was NEVER intended to be a traditional Hot Rod. I have REPEATEDLY stated that it is NOT a traditional build. I'm here because I love seeing them and reading how the builder reached his goal. I respect perfection and the people who not only search for it, but achieve it.

    There is NOTHING (read that N O T H I N G ) saying that "I", "ME" has to have a traditional Hot Rod to appreciate one. As of now, I don't have the time or resources to build one. Personally, I like radial tires and coil overs, so I'm WAY off the mark and will never be a contender and I am VERY fine with that and I don't care if anyone else is or not.

    I get SO ****ing tired of reading about the whiners complaining about what's traditional and what's not. Deep inside, you KNOW what's bogus and you seek acceptance from your buds who are also whiners and "wanna be's". All you "wanna be's" need to step back and do a serious self evaluation on what the hell you're trying to pass off and why. Because a LOT of you are on the traditional band wagon because you saw it as the new cool thing to do. Then, when you saw how serious the goal was, you tried to rewrite history to fit your "wanna be cool" agenda. Just admit it and free yourself from the burden of asking what's allowed and what isn't. There's no harm in having an alternator in your ride, but don't start telling me how they came out during WWI and are okay to use. STOP rewriting the past. One ugly ass truck had air suspension and some guys have used that sad fact as an excuse to slap air on anything with wheels and call it "traditional". ONE car does not equate as MASS APPEAL. Hiding stuff is STILL hiding. Why are you hiding equipment? Who the hell are you hiding it from? Yourself? STOP trying to be something you're not. If you want a traditional car, build it, but don't pull a "well almost" and call it period correct.

    STOP whining, pointing fingers and rewriting history to fill the need to be one with the cool kids. Because gawd knows, the cool kids are getting tired of asking you to move, so they can wipe their asses.

    I'll check my messages in an hour for the one's I know are coming. Damn whiners. Just build your damn car and stop sweating everyone else's ride.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2014
    F-ONE, ffr1222k, gas pumper and 10 others like this.
  7. I want the look and stance of original sheetmetal, the safety of radials, sound steering, good booster-assisted brakes on a dual master cylinder, bright lights and safety glass, the convenience of an automatic transmission but not the computerized version, and the convenience of an electronic ignition. I can forego the comfort and convenience of air conditioning, power windows, tilt steering and a more plush interior. I like the feel of the original springs and ride height on an original front axle, but a four-bar upgrade nullifies that bump steer, so another nod to safety.
  8. tommy
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 14,758

    Member Emeritus

    I almost did not go look at this 36 because the restorer said he went back to mechanical brakes from the hyd. using all NOS parts. I was very disappointed. When he said I can put 4 skid marks on any road in the county, I said why not? It had a 55 265 in it and I drove it half way across the country and back in 100* weather in 1980. That taught me that the old school parts can work very well if they are maintained correctly. I grew up on generators so I was not scared. I found a generator and brackets to rebuild and shit canned the working alternator. I love the NOS SS hotrod generator cover from the 50s and felt compelled to use it on my 56. I convert my old Mallory dizzys to electronic but they have the look. That's my line in the sand. Not "look close" but authentic where you have to trace the wiring out to tell if it's genuine or not. Disc brakes? you've got to be shitting me!!! I leave the hood closed on my roadster in my avatar so no one sees the alternator and electric fan. Blasphemy. Yeah I put alternators on my cars in the 80s. It wasn't until the late 90s when I found the HAMB when I could come out of the closet and finally get to celebrate the old hotrods as they really were. Nothing pleases me more than having some old timer mention a part that I hunted for, for so long.
    gas pumper and HOTRODPRIMER like this.
  9. T Fever Fred said it all. I tried to be as traditional as I could, building a 401 Nailhead to go in my A40 Austin. Do you know how much a 30thou over Nailhead block, this is BLOCK alone costs in Australia today? No?
    For a ready to go block, that's BLOCK alone I paid over $2000 Dollars. I will be as close as my Returned Services League pension will let me be, if that means a 351 Clevo with a top loader and 9inch rear end well that's good enough for me. I will be as trad as I can be on a soldiers pension. If any one out there wants to challenge me on that decision I will happily go toe to toe with you.

    As close as I can get is close enough for me. That may include a glass body, repo front end, repo parts on my motor but I am doing what I can to be as original as I can!
    If it looks right and passes Australia's Road Laws, I am happy.

    Spoggie likes this.
  10. summersshow
    Joined: Mar 3, 2013
    Posts: 899

    from NC

    My personal preference... I love the old bodys and traditional looks, but as we all know parts for these engines are getting harder and harder to get... Example... Burnt up a set of points on my '64 truck... took me a week to get them... So what ive started doing in the past 2 years is LS conversions... Not fuel injected, and no computer but retaining factory trans and everything else... Its simple and actually pretty cheap along with parts readily available... It may not be traditional but in all reality a 350 isnt either... So I have 325 horsepower, parts are at any parts store, and I can pick up a good running motor anytime I want for 500 or less...
  11. junkyardjeff
    Joined: Jul 23, 2005
    Posts: 7,399


    If it was not for repro parts my 37 Chevy p/u would still be in pieces in the garage,when I tore it apart back in the late 70s good steel fenders were hard to find and did not get any easier in the late 80s when I got back on it so it got some fiberglass and reproduction parts. My line in the sand is it has to look old.
  12. I build the car to make me happy. If I want to use the junk I have to save a buck, so be it. If I want something to be convenient, or I want a modern stereo I don't have to dig under the dashboard to adjust, that's how it's going to be. As long as it doesn't look like a complete POS rat rod, that's good enough.
    ffr1222k and rockable like this.
  13. True I dont personally know you but I have read what you've posted about your car. You have a ball with it that's for sure. That's why I didn't understand your comment to beaners question.

    Seems kind of like a exersice in futility to be a part of a "traditional hot rod and custom" site and explain why your views are different and just as good. Why aggravate yourself to that level of frustration conveyed in that post?
    Saxman likes this.
  14. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 6,227


    tfeverfred X2. I'm always amazed when I read a thread where a HAMB poster wants to pass off a 350 SBC as a 283 to "fool" people. Why would anyone in their right mind spend their hard earned money to "fool" someone they don't even know? What can the point possibly be? Yet this type of thread appears over and over again.
    I also believe the "Traditional Wannabe's" are trying to gain approval from others they also don't know. I guess they think its the cool thing to do. Is there a problem in building a car thats reliable, comfortable and with the latest safety improvements? If thats the case it looks like a bunch of us are in the wrong hobby with the wrong goals.
    That 63 Chevy BelAir in my avatar, has a Fuel Injected SBC, full Ride Tech air ride, Vintage Air, Tremec 5 speed, polished 17 inch Americans, power windows, power brakes, power steering, front disc brake kit, full instrumentation, power door locks, keyless entry and a new interior. The car is reliable, fuel efficient, comfortable, safe and just the way I want it. Besides I think its cool.
    There must be something about it that appeals to people, as I've had numerous offer's to buy it despite never having a for sale sign on it.
    If someone doesn't like it, I could care less. I don't need or want anyones approval.
    Hot Rodding has always appealed to me as each build shows the individuality of the builder. If all cars looked the same, there would be no need to ever look at another car.
    metlmunchr and rockable like this.
  15. tfeverfred
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 15,796


    Aggravation?:confused: It was a pleasure writing what I thought, because it's true. How you take is up to you. I'm into War Birds and on a forum about them. Never owned one. Never even flown in one. Still have a passion for them.

    Everyone should have a personal standard. Mine's a little high. See, my T Bucket may not appeal to you or anyone else. That has VERY little meaning to me. What it does have to be is the most efficient, safe and fastest car I have ever owned. and look nice doing it. I've got a ways to go, but she's getting there. THAT'S my line on MY car.

    So, on a site dedicated to traditional hot rods and customs, I expect 100% and pre '48 is the icing on the cake. I still like the other cars and admire the work done, but if it's not 100% traditional, don't go around telling that lie.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2014
  16. Ulu
    Joined: Feb 26, 2014
    Posts: 1,754

    from CenCal

    Since I'm a newb here, this topic is far from old to me.

    I was under the impression that the real motivation behind the HAMBesque build philosophy was that these cars would be built to participate in nostalgia racing (or at least to look the part) or to be in nostalgia car shows. With that in mind I can easily understand the mindset that there are rules to follow and grey areas will have to be judged closely and on a case by case basis.

    Maybe I am over thinking this?

    But clearly many HAMB-perfect cars would be poor-to-mediocre drivers in modern city traffic. I say this having driven some very old repaired (not restored) mildly hopped up stockers for some years, as daily commuter cars, in Central California. It's not impossible. You just always keep in mind that you're driving an antique. And you keep the maintenance done & check the things no modern car even has.

    But those were cars from the 40's & 50's. Not the 20s & 30's. I'm not sure what to think about that, having never driven something so old.

    To me this place is much the same as any restorer site in regards to attitudes about preserving what's correct. HAMBers just have a slightly different set of rules to follow.
  17. tfeverfred
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 15,796


    The thing is, some people bend the rules and make up excuses to cover their asses. It's like the one legged man in a 1 mile race, who want's to shorten HIS measurement of the mile to make it even. Don't change the game. Change the player.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2014

  18. If I were building a full on "traditional" rod, the LS is out (I won't use 'em anyway cause I don't wanna figure out the wiring) MIG would be out (for visible welds), but TIG was invented in the '30s (HeliArc) so that's OK. Finding NOS body panels is a bitch so I wouldn't look (if I found what I needed NOS and the price was OK then I'd use it, but I wouldn't get wrapped up in it)

    For me, it's more the look I'm after. I'm doing a 55 Ford truck right now. As long as the outside looks like it could be a late-50s to early-60s shop truck hot rod then I'm happy. But I'm gonna drive the wheels off this thing, so good suspension, driveline, tires, etc are a necessity. I'm doing a frame swap (91 Dodge 3/4 ton), running a 460/C6, and radial tires, dual master, sway bars, etc... to make that truck a pleasure to drive.
  19. I can name a few...
  20. HellsHotRods
    Joined: Jul 24, 2009
    Posts: 1,336


    Yea, did you even read the thread. A handful of people are 100%
    I can tell you that nothing on my original Henry Ford 1932 roadster is newer than 1949 except the Coker tires and the air in them.
    40 rear. 39 trans LZ gears, 49 Merc engine, Navarro heads, 40 brakes, 49 SW gauges with 5" tach/speedo. SW tach drive on crank, 36 st wheel. Orig ford shock mounts. Covered shocks. Original 32 front end. Etc etc etc
    Took over 10 years to build it right

    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
  21. Ulu
    Joined: Feb 26, 2014
    Posts: 1,754

    from CenCal

    Yes, well you see this in every facet of life. I mean from international politics to the playground marble game.

    It's sorta amusing to go to the State Architect's office & see design professionals with credentials from Cal Tech and MIT doing the same song & dance. People are the same in the computer lab and in the grease pit. Self-interest is the norm and rules are for others.

    I imagine it would get tiresome after the 100th time though...;D

  22. 99%er here. Thought I would chime in. I find this to be a rather interesting thread.

    I personally like cars that are true and EXACT to a period. Either a TRUE survivor or an honest reproduction. I know this can come across as elitist, but that is not my intention. It's just what I like. Same way i am attracted to certain female body types over others...It just is.

    None of this means I don't look at other examples and styles either.

    I can't change the fact that I don't like the looks of super modern stuff on an old car or that I want my car to look old down to the littlest details. It's true, the littlest detail can RUIN a car for me. This is my problem, not the builders of said car, or people that don't notice that "flaw"(Not really a flaw, just in my eyes). It's my problem and I try to keep my mouth shut about it. I also have a OCD problem about how the dishes in the dishwasher are arranged....So yeah....

    It just is what it is.

    I'm not saying that a "traditionally inspired build" is not cool Or that mine or anyone else's "period perfect" build is better in anyway. I just build them and gravitate towards them because that is what attracts me. I want it to be EXACTLY like a moment frozen in time. Simple as that. If I built them any other way I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. Seriously.

    Yes, I know I am sick. I do not encourage this behavior. In fact, seek help...

    Now we will take a look at just how deep I have gone.

    I'm building my 1931 Model A pickup as a post war shop truck, Something you would have seen in the backround 46-52ish time period with some older stuff thrown in. My premise for building it is that this is what I would do with all the banger parts off of a roadster that has been swapped to a V8 after the war.

    Here is a run down of some of what I have put into this build.

    Engine: Model A 4 cylinder with lightened flywheel and counterbalanced crank. Running a Super Winfield head, which is a post war Bell Auto Parts produced reproduction of the original Winfield heads, which were almost 20 years old at the time. Winfield downdraft carb and intake and a Winfield cam. Fuel is fed from a stock tank and late 31 shut off valve to a 1948 Fram glass bowl fuel filter, then onto a restored 1940's Autopulse 500 6v fuel pump. All of this thru Cunifer fuel Lines( looks like copper but better) For ignition it's got a late 30's restored Mallory distributor backed by a NOS Mallory "Best Coil Ever Made" ignition coil. Power runs thru that to cloth spark plug wires and NOS Autolite spark plugs dated to the period. It has reproduction Model A red stripe hoses, which I believe were what was available from Ford in the 40's? ( could be wrong on that) and those are clamped by NOS Breeze thumbscrew hose clamps that are Army/Navy WWII vintage. It has a 6volt generator. The only modern concession is a NEW leakless sealed bearing water pump. of course all the gaskets and consumables are new.

    Transmission: 1939 toploader adapted via a Clings kit.

    Brakes and suspension: early Ford brakes all around. The front axle is a dropped model A, stock A perches and a reverse eye spring. Spindles are 1939 round backs. Nothing fancy. Everything was rebuilt to factory tolerance using old American made replacement parts. Shoes relined locally. It's got a reverse eye spring in rear too, with a 7 leaf spring(roadster). I took the stock springs and chamfered the edges and polished them to make the spring smooth. It would have been a lot easier to by a street rod spring. The Tires are 5.50x17 front and 7.50x17 rear bias ply's. Basically stock tire sizes for a 1933-34 Ford car and a 1934 Cadillac v16. On Ford 17 wire wheels. The brake line fittings are 1939 Ford reproductions. Like a took them with the rest of the car I got brake stuff from. About the only modern concession is a dual pot master cylinder. Shocks are to be determined. About the only thing not in line would be the 1953 F100 steering box.

    It has cloth wiring thru out. Almost everything is NOS, a good reproduction, or a nice original. Just as long as it looks the part. I've even gone as far as "restoring" parts of the truck so they would more closely resemble how the truck would have been in the late 40's. I don't know that it's period perfect, I don't know that it's even that cool. It's just what I am building, it's built to the best of my abilities at this time. It's mine and it's a representative of my hot rod personality, Just as yours is a representative of you. I'm not here to judge you on whether you chose an alternator or a generator, or bias vs radials. Those are your choices, and these are mine. This hobby would be far less interesting if we all built the same shit. Just because it's not for me, doesn't mean I don't respect the effort and skill. I just think it's awesome that we're all able to do this stuff, whether it's "super period anal stuff" like I like or the "traditional inspired" and so on. We all have our place.....except for Rat Rods....Screw those guys o_O:eek::p;) J/K

    In the end when I am done with it, It will resume duties as my daily driver. Everytime I drive it I will be taking a trip in time. I hope to be able to park it in front of a vintage craftsman house someday, and listen to my 1940's records, while sitting on a a vintage couch. I just want the experience to be. "how it was" Shitty bias ply's, crappy suspension, dim headlights and all.... because that authentic experience makes me happy. :cool:
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2014
  23. rockable
    Joined: Dec 21, 2009
    Posts: 2,908


    My lines are wavy, too. I hesitated to reply to this thread for fear of being labeled a pariah....but I see I have company.

    I like for my cars to look traditional but my priorities are safety, driveability, reliability, comfort and serviceability. I like to drive my cars on trips and neither my wife or me would have wanted to drive a car without AC from NC to Salina last August. I try to make my cars look traditional but I build them to suit me.

    I don't love the "street rod" look with all of the embossed interior effects and digital dashboards, just as I don't like customs that are over the top, but a LS3 engine and drivetrain, disc brakes, dual master cylinder, M2 suspension, modern rear geometry, alternator, etc. does not offend me. In fact, it's probably how I would build my car.

    I have a 54 Chevy that is a restorod. I did not build it but I finished it. The only things on it that don't look "period correct" are the steering wheel, column and pedals. Again, I didn't install them. I couldn't believe the shit I caught over that when I showed pictures of it.

    I love the HAMB as a knowledge center but some of the people here are just plain rude and obnoxious when it comes to defending their definition of "traditional".
    ffr1222k and racingonerobb like this.
  24. Skeezix
    Joined: Jan 10, 2007
    Posts: 846

    from SoCal

    I believe that traditional is a spirit not a written law. What if you can MIG and can't TIG ? Does that make you a sinner? Or are you doing what you can with what you have ?
    It certainly doesn't make you a gold chainer if you use what you have ...
  25. No, traditional means traditional. Nothing more and nothing less.

    1. existing in or as part of a tradition; long-established.
      "the traditional festivities of the church year"
      synonyms:long-established, customary,time-honored, established,classic, accustomed, standard,regular, normal, conventional,usual, orthodox, habitual, set,fixed, routine, ritual; More
      • produced, done, or used in accordance with tradition.
        "a traditional fish soup"
      • habitually done, used, or found.
        "the traditional drinks in the clubhouse".

        So you can't redefine the words to your liking so you can fit . Mig welding was developed in the 40s for welding of non ferrous metals. Oxy accetalyne was used for welding of aluminum long before anyone ever heard of heliarc.
  26. Ulu
    Joined: Feb 26, 2014
    Posts: 1,754

    from CenCal

    Some people are just rude by nature IMO, and many are just waiting for any excuse to exercise their gall. I'm not sure why the internet attracts them, but it seems to.

    I've met plenty in person too folks, & It's not the cars that make folks rude.
  27. Yes, I did read the thread. So you've got mostly old parts on your hot rod – good for you. I bet if you looked a little closer you'd find more than just your tires are new or reproduction (I hope you're not running 1949 tubes). My point was and is that trying to define this stuff (or draw lines in the sand) is silly. Everyone has their threshold.

    Hitchhiker – I truly respect what you're doing – following your vision and being honest about the extremely minor compromises you've made. You'll have a fine, uber-traditional hot rod when you're done – keep up the excellent work.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2014
    Hitchhiker likes this.
  28. I believe that for many of us, the key factors in a build are our abilities/resources including $/likes and dislikes. I always build to suit my wants/ it suits me. I wish the traditional group was divided into pre-war and post war traditional cars. A lot of the cars we see as strictly traditional were built pre-war and then modified post-war by the same owner, using an OHV engine, better brakes and steering etc. Some of them are still around, ask them why. Tim
    Hitchhiker likes this.
  29. rockable
    Joined: Dec 21, 2009
    Posts: 2,908


    It's funny. A friend of mine, Buster Henderson aka "three deuces" is a retired professional hot rod builder. He did it for 3 or 4 decades. He has built more hot rods and deuces than most HAMB members will ever build.

    I asked him how he welded patch panels and he said, "I use the MIG. I've never "heliarced" any patch panels." And forget gas welding. He can do it, but time was money. He used filler when he built them, but there wasn't much. His fabricating skills are awesome.
  30. HellsHotRods
    Joined: Jul 24, 2009
    Posts: 1,336


    In my book you are either on one side of the line or the other.
    It's like ALL the roadsters I just saw at the LARS that people claimed were 1932 Fords but yet didn't have a single 1932 Ford part on the car... fiberglass body, 4 bar, repro frame, etc etc,,,,,, How can you say it's a '32 Ford??
    People on here have commented on how it's hard to get parts so they sometimes grab a repro or something that will work... Well, I sell traditional parts to hot rodders all over the world, I just sold a 39 trans and parts for a '34 tudor in South to me, that's hard core!!! I can't feel sorry for the guy in the USA who doesn't try.
    Muttley likes this.

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