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Projects DRAG SNAKE "Vintage Terror!"

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Deuced Up!, Oct 13, 2017.

  1. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,362

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    Something to be said for mechanical linkages. They very seldom leak fluid.
     
  2. Deuced Up!
    Joined: Feb 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,139

    Deuced Up!
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    LMAO! Really? Wow I feel so much better knowing it was one of you wackos!
    Especially since we are not going! Now that is funny....I don't care what anyone says! I thought all along it might be. Thanks for owning up to it, that makes my day. And I needed a good laugh.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2022
    chryslerfan55, Thor1 and swade41 like this.
  3. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 5,772

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    Another vote for an external slave cylinder. Much easier to set up and keep a check on.
     
  4. Deuced Up!
    Joined: Feb 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,139

    Deuced Up!
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Resized_20220724_131736(1).jpeg
    So here is what we have besides a good coating of powdered aluminum. That is not where this throwout housing was clocked. The pin in the photo is around 2 o'clock but it started at 8. And in fact this is not where we actually found it when we broke the trans apart from the engine. It was closer on around to about 6.

    Now This trans came with a special aluminum plate/adapter that went over the shaft and screwed to front of the trans.
    Resized_20220724_143458.jpeg

    Resized_20220724_143517.jpeg
    Then the throwout housing bolted to it. The guide pin screws into the housing and then the throwout assembly slides on housing shaft and guide pin keeps it from spinning.

    Resized_20220724_143533.jpeg

    Resized_20220724_143555.jpeg

    Resized_20220724_143614.jpeg

    But what we have here is a total engineering disconnect. Maybe I should have caught it during assembly but I was much more worried about the bearing cushion etc. to think about much else.

    So the aluminum plate is screwed to the transmission with a couple of small screws. It is both a spacer and positions or centers the housing over the shaft. The throw out housing is attached to the aluminum plate with a couple of screws and the guide pin is screwed into the throw out housing ONLY.

    After the fact now, the aluminum that I thought was really just a spacer was actually holding the entire system from spinning on the shaft which is a total cluter f%#k of engineering. After we hit it pretty hard a couple of times it sheared those two small screws in the aluminum plate. The entire housing, plate and all spun and started to pull in and wrap up the excess braided cable around itself. It forced the housing forward and mushroomed the shaft end of on the flywheel. One of the braided lines rubbed on the outside of the clutch holder, and took a little anodizing off but that is about all it did.

    Resized_20220724_143656.jpeg
    Then I am guessing it broke the heavy zip tie I had on the lines to keep them out off the steering rod and rotated on around some more. It also pulled in the bleeder line and it ripped the bearing off the housing and broke the seal etc. and the whole thing shifted back to the front of the transmission and that is where we found it.

    But help is on the way. Dun dun dun! Jackson has a plan for a mechanical cable linkage and a tried and true clutch fork and bearing! He is headed up here tonight to have a look see and maybe a steak! lol. Stay tuned folks. Same screwed up Cobra Thread on the same jacked up Cobra Network! lol
     
  5. Harv
    Joined: Jan 16, 2008
    Posts: 495

    Harv
    Member
    from Sydney

    If it's any consolation, the 1/4 mile video had me grinning like a Cheshire cat here 9800 miles away.

    Nice meaty burnout made the blue coupe slink off with it's tail between it's legs. Lumpy idle, angry throttle response. Wheels up off the line, and skyward again in second. Awesome.

    Good luck with the repair. Can't wait to see the first full-noise pass.

    Cheers,
    Harv
     
  6. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 16,449

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Good to see you are active and posting again Randal, really missed seeing the Drag Snake.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2022
    Deuced Up! and Thor1 like this.
  7. A few months ago I thought I could get my Henry J up and running and make the long haul, it's only 20 miles from my hometown, and whip your ass lol
    I got frustrated with it and started working on the 41, so I'm right in the urban legend category too, 2014 was the last time it was capable of running and moving.
     
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  8. AmishMike
    Joined: Mar 27, 2014
    Posts: 693

    AmishMike
    Member

    I admire your manual shift cobra ( have one with blownup engine - a 350 sbc & 5 speed under rebuild - think outside the box ). Anyway, why not test a trans braked auto just to see how she goes. Please do not throw rocks. Just a temporary test. Would permit some driving instead of rebuilding all the time. Smile face & shrug………
     
  9. SS327
    Joined: Sep 11, 2017
    Posts: 1,345

    SS327

    Holman Moody called, they want their stickers back
     
  10. Deuced Up!
    Joined: Feb 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,139

    Deuced Up!
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Now that made me laugh!
     
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  11. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 11,432

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    It was a good one. :D
     
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  12. Deuced Up!
    Joined: Feb 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,139

    Deuced Up!
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    So believe it or not, after weighing all the options from slave cylinder to cable operated etc, not to mention the limited space we have, I think I am going to put a hydraulic unit back in the stupid thing (third times a charm). Jackson just happened to have a heavy duty McCleod unit, the exact same model we ran on the Austin with the Doug Nash. We never had an issue with it and pushed twice the horsepower through it etc. In my opinion it is a proven unit and seeing it tonight actually made me feel relaxed.

    As Jackson put it, the RAM Clutches are awesome but the adapters they have to used to get a twin clutch in a Tremec are total crap (and I think we have proven it). Now we are going to have to modify the case a bit, drill and tap a couple of holes in it and drill at least one if not two new matching holes in the throwout housing to align everything but it will be worth it. I think it will be worth it. It will be worth it. LMAO!

    I don't think we will get it all back together in time for the Bootheel but hopefully we will be ready for the SPAM Drags at Mokan next month. I am trying to stay very focused on the Cobra right now because Saturday morning this little thing arrived and I am sort of chomping at the bit to get my hands on it.

    679958917001.jpg
     
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  13. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 11,432

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    Use some red loctite on that spacer.
     
  14. wrenchbender
    Joined: Sep 5, 2007
    Posts: 2,207

    wrenchbender
    Member

    James that spacer is goin where it belongs… the trash can that trans has no place for a throw out collar so no matter what it has to be drilled and tapped even if there is a mechanical setup installed so at this moment the McLeod unit will fix all his issues especially the limited space and save a whole bunch of work Randall has enough stuff to set it all up an test it before he puts the motor back in I really don’t like hydraulic setups but in this instance this is the best fix for the issue if I had known about the way it was made I would have made him change it two times ago lmao the way that piece of crap was made there is no way it would ever hold up even to a stock engine
     
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  15. 0NE BAD 51 MERC
    Joined: Nov 12, 2010
    Posts: 1,567

    0NE BAD 51 MERC
    Member

    I am trying to stay very focused on the Cobra right now because Saturday morning this little thing arrived and I am sort of chomping at the bit to get my hands on it.

    View attachment 5465082 [/QUOTE]


    Are you going to hinge the roof so you can get in and out of that thing! none of us are as flexible as we use to be. lol Glad to see you guys back at it. I was worried I might have to start learning by my own mistakes again! Larry
     
  16. That'll be a tight squeeze to get in and out of !
     
  17. SS327
    Joined: Sep 11, 2017
    Posts: 1,345

    SS327

    That was my intention! You have had some rotten luck with that Garden snake.
     
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  18. Deuced Up!
    Joined: Feb 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,139

    Deuced Up!
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Okay so here is the fix. In a nutshell. Maybe. Not the nutshell, the fix...LOL!

    Front.jpg
    So lets start with "D". This is the only hole in the case in this area. It is metric 8mm. I am just guessing but I think this was likely planned for the guidepin of a hydraulic throwout; EVEN though the Aluminum adapter that must go on first to hold said throwout housing had no matching hole. And of course there in was our problem.

    "A" and "B" are the original mounting holes for the adapter etc. take a look at how tiny they are! As you can see we had started working on drilling out the sheared off bolt in "A" but "B" is still there. After deciding the new course of mounting the McLeod throw out we stopped messing with them. Finally "C" is just a similar looking pad that had a slot machined in it, not sure why. We picked a hole in the Mcleod housing that we could put a bolt in hole D and center it over the shaft. Now normally this would be crazy important because there is a seal on the shaft. But in this application as you can see the front of the trans already has a seal (mainly because in the real world, no one puts a hydraulic throw out system on here). LOL

    Resized_20220726_213515.jpeg
    We marked the case where the meat of the pads were and rotated the housing on the one bolt until we were as centered as possible on the shaft and then marked the housing to match the case marks. FYI none of the other 6 holes in the housing matched any of the marks. So we started with "D", ground the machine slotted area down. Drilled the housing as marked, first with a smaller pilot hole, then with a 5/16 bit. After it was complete, we reinstalled the housing with the one 8mm bolt. We rotated back to center, tightened the 8mm and drilled through the housing into the case carefully until we had a good cut started. Then we removed it, finished the hole, tapped it for a 5/16 helicoil and installed it.

    Resized_20220726_213926.jpeg
    We repeated the process on the "A" and "B" and poof there it is. This unit is now secured with four 5/16 grade 8 bolts with red loctite.

    Resized_20220726_213934.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2022
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  19. Deuced Up!
    Joined: Feb 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,139

    Deuced Up!
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    IMG_2655.jpg
    We received a really cool photo yesterday from Jackson and JCA Photography from the ARK City Event. I mean this guy is good. He made this car look like it was crazy fast, when in reality I think we laid down a blistering 18 second pass at 78 mph. LMAO! But all kidding aside, what a killer photo! Thanks
     
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  20. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 3,086

    GearheadsQCE
    Alliance Vendor

    Looks like your clutch fix should work.

    Why guys in this business think you should have to reengineer their stuff to work is beyond me. I mean, in the old days we had to make stuff work that wasn't intended to be used that way. But a clutch from a hot rod clutch maker should work in a hot rod.
    The car sure looks good with the wheels up!
     
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  21. Wouldn't it be better for that plate to be on a flat, even surface ?
     
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  22. Deuced Up!
    Joined: Feb 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,139

    Deuced Up!
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The raised cast circle in the case is a uniform height. It took a few shots from the old housing and it's sheared bolts but we cleaned it up. The back of the McLeod unit is flat and sat perfectly the circle with no wobble at all. We double checked it for true and plumb with the scattershield and it was dead perfect straight or flat or what you want to call.
     
  23. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,580

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    So what caused the tiny bolts to shear? Something had to grab the rotating items; i.e. pressure plate, seized throw-out brg, ect no? There shouldn't be any real rotational load except from the throw-out bearing as best I can visualize, or theorize while not having my nose in it. The end of the unit, in front of throw-out brg, is chewed up some?
     
  24. Looks like your fix should work. Though it does save some space, I've never trusted hydraulics inside the bell-housing. Too much potential for problems for me...
     
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  25. 0NE BAD 51 MERC
    Joined: Nov 12, 2010
    Posts: 1,567

    0NE BAD 51 MERC
    Member

    Now check the expiration date on your seat belts and show Jackson what the back side of that car looks like! lol I thought that Ram set up sounded like the cat's ass when you put it in. Hopefully this set up is the answer. I am still rooting for ya! Larry
     
  26. I understand from your answer to the above question that the red plate itself is sitting flat on the machined surface just outside the input shaft seal/bearing. My question is (and I believe this may be what Scruff was wondering too), doesn't that mean the rest of the red plate is not touching the trans anywhere else but that inner machined surface? If that is correct, doesn't that mean any tightening of the four bolts and you would be risking warping the red plate? Are you just snugging up the four bolts (meaning they are really nothing more than capped guide pins) and hoping the red loctite will prevent them from falling out?

    If this were me (and it's not and I am only seeing things through your pics and my imagination) I think I'd machine/file the surface of the trans at each of the four bolts then fabricate some spacers to take up the space between the trans and the red plate. This would allow you to put some torque to those four bolts without fear of warping the red plate and this would also help (in my opinion) to better hold the red plate in position.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2022
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  27. Deuced Up!
    Joined: Feb 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,139

    Deuced Up!
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Seb I really took my time taking all this apart. I studied every piece, where it was, what it looked like...you know real CSI crap. LOL At first my assumption was the little bolts in the adapter must have started to vibrate loose, just enough to cause a tiny bit of back and fourth movement on them when the clutch was applied and released etc. I thought maybe it was just enough movment that it finally took its toll and they wore through.

    But as you mention the nose of the bearing cover had some heavy damage. I thought it must have been forced forward into the back of the clutch housing rear plate when it came off and that is where it got damaged. But today I decided to take the clutch apart just to make sure there was no damage and to have a look at how it is wearing.

    After we got it all apart and cleaned up etc. I got a good look at the back of that clutch plate where the housing had obviously rubbed. I mean the housing was aluminum and to leave the kind of heavy rub marks on the back of the clutch plate it had to be more than a glancing blow. It had been there for awhile.

    I immediately had a pretty good idea what had happen but I had to get the clutch back together to prove it.

    After it was all back together I measured from the back of the rear clutch plate in question to the fingers. About an inch and a 1/8 th ish (tape measure). Then I grabbed the old throw out housing and popped the bearing back on it. With bearing all the way back. I measured from its face to the mushroomed end of the housing. You guessed it. Just a smidge over and inch and an 1/8. Likely about .160 of inch over because that was the bearing cushion when it was installed.

    It is not something we ever thought about measuring because it came as a custom package for this clutch and this trans. So with that being said when we installed the trans back on the motor after the clutch change, the end of the throwout housing was in contact with the backside of the rear clutch plate.

    The housing was about an 1/8 of an inch too long for this application. Now remember we had that aluminum plate/adapter behind the housing turned down searching for bearing cushion space. We took nearly 3/8" off of it. Had we not had to do that it would have really been too long. In fact we would have noticed it when we installed the trans.
     
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  28. Deuced Up!
    Joined: Feb 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,139

    Deuced Up!
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Well we are ready to mate the trans back up to the motor and floor test it. I know the proper term is bench test but my bench won't hold the stupid thing and it is too far from the car! LOL. But seriously, that is the plan, put it all back together and slide it all over next to the car and use the actual master cylinder and pedal to test it on the "floor."

    I am pretty happy on all fronts today. Yesterday we started working all the measurements and math to make sure we have the correct bearing cushion. We are supposed to be somewhere between .150 and .200 With the Mcleod unit in place and three .050 shims that were on it removed, we measured right off the bat without the 3/8" spacer between bellhousing and the transmission. Believe it or not we had too much space. Then we put two of the shims back on and came up with a .167 cushion. I will take that all day.

    So that gives me 3/8" back in the shifter placement and driveshaft length departments. I know it doesn't sound like much but on this car that is a mile! We are upgrading the braided lines as well (I mean both of them were basically shredded anyway). What we had on it were 3AN and the fittings on the Mcleod are 4AN. So I snagged a couple of new 4AN lines and master cylinder fittings. You know these crazy Tilton units did not come with any hardware or fittings. I ask them why when we were talking about barrel size a while back. They said everyone seemed to want different styles and sizes of fittings from Banjo styles to O-Ring etc. from 3 to 6 AN so they just decided to stop sending anything with them.

    We are going O-Ring style this time, we could also put a brass crush washer in there if we need to. Everything is supposed to be here this week, including a radiator for Zoe's slightly off topic 455 car. But hopefully by the end of the weekend we can have both units back up and running again! That will be just in time for the huge Route 66 Festival Car Show in Springfield, MO. It is quite an event the following weekend, if you are in the neighborhood look us up, we be on the Southside of the square with the Cobra, Dad's 3 Window and Zoe's Rivi.
     
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  29. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 16,449

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    They say it's not about the destination but the adventure, I bet you are ready to finally enjoy the destination.
     
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  30. It sounds like you’re sort of planning your strategy right now. Am I right?
     

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