Double "Z'd" Frames

It seems like this practice has become more and more common, and frankly, I have nothing against it...when well executed.......but.....

I was initiated as a gearhead in the late 50's...first with model cars...then a Cushman step through...then an Eagle. By the time I was 16, I had my own hot rod and a pretty damn big collection of "little books." Still have them.

I grew up in small town Mississippi, and my connection to the outside hot rod world was magazines. Today, it is the internet. Get to the point, AJ!

I've seen my share of builds...starting in the '50s..... where the rear of the frame was "Z'd," but the first time I saw a front of frame "Z" was about six years ago at Cruisin' the Coast. This was not one of the better ones I have seen...the "Z" took place just behind the front crossmember vs at the firewall, and to make matters worse, the power plant was a V6, and the front suspension was Mustang II...the car was fenderless, and I threw up in my mouth.

Bottom line...when did the practice of "Z'ing" the front emerge?

 

I'm certain I've seen "zee"ed front rails in cars in early Hot Rod and other car mags of the 50s-60s. No common but was being done.

I have also seen the "zee"ed at the front crossmember deal on some recent builds, sometimes as much as 5-10" and it does make a pukey kind of reaction when you see it.

 

I've seen plenty of suicide front ends with tall-assed spring perches, but don't recall the actual frame being "Z'd". I'll have to go back to the magazines and really look close.

 

I like them pinched and angle upward rather than z'd. Mine has a raised spring perch off the front crossmember. Z'ing kills the look in the front IMO and really isn' needed

 

Sounds like something the 'mouse rod' crowd build.

 

If you really look, there were more than a few double Z'd frames around in the 40's-50's, some of them were even quite extreme. Hell, the Doane Spencer deuce roadster, for one.

 

I agree with you completely on the execution factor. I am a huge believer in function over form. If it has a functional purpose, I'm all in, even if ugly, but if it's only about appearance, It doesn't turn me on much. Don't get me wrong. The sculptures coming out of Rad Rides by Troy are visual master pieces, but they are very functional, too. I don't pay much attention at all to a car with extreme Z's in the frame just for ground scraping ride height. My order of function in a hot rod is 1. drag race, 2. LSR racing, 3. cross town in an F'n hurry and have fun doing it. I am not likely to slow down at a railroad crossing and will laugh at any poser that scapes his belly doing so, to say nothing of the punks that can't cross a speed bump at Sonic.
I think Bobby Bleed set the standard (maybe not the inventor) when he started the Bleed sweep. I copied his idea and even hit him up for pointers. I think a testimony to the perfect simplicity of the swept frame rail is evident in the virtually non existent Z in a '32 frame. Have you ever seen that done? What did you think of it?

Sorry, I'm not old enough to contribute on historical applications.

 

I could swear I was just reading an article in Hot Rod Deluxe or some other such publication that featured a car with a double z-ed frame that was raced at El Mirage back in the day... or used as a push car, I can't remember it all.
But I agree, unless it is well executed and has a purpose other than making the car scrape the dirt, they don't really appeal to me either.

 

This is how I built the front half of the frame for my pickup and I Z'ed the back half. Unfortunately, I think I Z'ed it in the back too much and I am going to have to get back into the back half again someday. I know I've seen a pickup built in the 60's that had the front part of the frame pinched and angled upward.

 

When I was a kid in the 50s in Oakland an older neighbor kid maybe college age had a fenderless 33-34 coupe frame Zd in the front and back. I thought it odd at the time. Looking back though it was pretty bitchin. Crate Corvette engine and 4 speed. Sat flat and must have been pretty functional. Wish I could find it now. I actually drove past the house a few monts ago. Nothing.
I stepped the front of my Ts frame pretty high (see avatar) to get the front down. Kinda wish now I would have taken the time to install the spring low and back as Graboski and Ivo did.

 

Some of the older rods around just had a Z in the back and or a C-notch. I can't see both for except for plowing the speed bumps. Function over form.

 

I totally credit Bob with that too. I think there may have been a couple rods back in the day that were swept, but they were other frames grafted onto a frames and such. Bob pretty much set the standard for the swept model A frame, and there's a ton of guys copying it now...because it rules and looks killer.


I have definitely seen a few rods from back in the day with front Z's...usually behiond the firewall. On some the framerails would disappear halfway up the firewall.

 

This is a frame I built with 2x3 box tube. It's z'd in the front and rear but I tried to hide it as much as possible. Did anyone see the Tan colored Tudor (Minnesota Hot Rod Supply?) on the Pinks re-run last weekend. Cool car but I didn't like how you could see the "z" so much.

 

my .02, mainly done to give the channeled look without loosing cockpit space, more so on a chopped top car or truck. i for one like the look after being done, but i would go no more then 4"in the front. some are just to much

 

I have seen a few in the 50's mags but for the most part people just seemed to channel the body instead and not worry about foot room

 

i believe juilo hernadez (bean bandits)had a car over 15 years ago done with the "bleed sweep"..... does that pre date bob? i believe eastwood sweeped the cop shop coupe over 25 years ago, pleanty of hotrods back when, had z'd frames also .....trust me.... there are no NEW ideas in traditional hotrods the first time anything was done was probably back in the fortys those old guys were on top of it ALL OF US ARE COPYING THEM.....Period!.... , you are fooling yourself if you dont believe that

 

Yeah I'm not fooled. Everythings been done. My point is that in the last couple years the amount of swept model A frames has skyrocketed and I believe it's because people saw it done in Mad Fab, Live Wire, Etc..

I remember Julio Hernandez' 32. It's rad.

 

i had a 32 ford frame that had the "bleed sweep" front and rear and it was built in 1950. that car sat real low

 

spotted this on the Cool Pics II thread,,,judging by the cars in the backround I would call this shot mid to late 50's

 

I hope you didn't swallow, spitting always makes a batter statement.

I was looking the other day at a '40s lakes racer in the rodders journal. It was Z'd a ton in front of the firewall. I don't think it was common and I don't recall every car you came across having it done until lately.

Never the less about anything that can be done has been done at one time or another.

One of the things I have been harping on for quite awhile is common trad and trad. Disc brakes have been around about for ever and I can recall rods with them as far back as when I was very young ( late '50s) for example. Was it common? Absolutely not but it was done. I have to assume that the double Z was also done just not as common as it is today.

One of the things that you have to remember is that something gets done and someone thinks its cool. Then everyone jumps on the band wagon. Its the same with flat paint or red wheels or you name it. It becomes very trad because everyone says it is. Public perception is everything.

 

Julio's car still runs around San Diego area, And it a Model "A" ... not a '32

Why do people CREDIT a guy just because he is a HAMB Member ? Guys have been Sweeping frames since Forever... Not New & Certainly not a Bob Bleed Original.

Stepped frames seems to be the easy way NOT to spend $250.00 for a dropped axle.

My Sport Coupe s pretty low in front with no step, Ya just kinda have to Accuire the RIGHT parts instead of living by the " I USED WHAT I HAD" Slogan.

 

I never claimed on inventing anything..... For sure its all been done..... I made up the "Bleed Sweep" name as a joke as I was typing it years ago........ I still think its funny that people refer to this a "Sweep" or "sweeping" It doesn't even make sense..... maybe I invented a name? hahaha

We made Tucks frame in the video and inspired a bunch of people.... thats about it...I'm honored.

Then I tried to manufacture some frames and never got it going the way I wanted to..... now there are really similar frames being sold that credit me as inspiration and even play off my stupid name..... its all good. Full circle.

Anyway it doesn't really matter to me.... I don't know why you guys are so mad..... haha

 

My original post was strictly about "z'd" frames. I don't consider the sweep to be a "z." I just never saw the double "z" as a youngster, but rather saw a lot of tall front spring perches as a way to drop the front. I believe the firewall "z" is a way to channel and not have to sit up in the wind like a T-Bucket owner.

As for the Bob Bleed style...I like it no matter who invented it. As for Bob Bleed...I think he is very creative, and has the skill to carry out his concepts. I even have a pair of his hand made adapters to mount an 8ba on 59A Motor mounts without changing water pumps. He ain't very pretty though.

 

I realize you are not talking about this style of frame but since others have mentioned it, here is the one I bought from Eric (Vaphead on the Hamb) from his Riley Auto Parts company in CO. Has a slope or sweep front on it. I like it. <center>
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This early enough? c. 1930:

Two French Montier-Fords and an Alfa-Romeo.

Montier entered modified Fords at Le Mans from the start until the late '30s.

The front Z on those A's isn't exactly elegant. Nor is the consequently forward-shifted radiator. Montier offered a full-fendered Tudor on that frame, but I've been forever trying to find out if they ever built any.

 

Yeah...I really wasn't thinking about race cars.

 

wasn't gene winfields lake T roadster z-d front and rear??

 

Z'd in the front has been around a long time, for those wanting to get the car really low. To make A rails with the sweep available to anyone is a great contribution to hot rodding, so Bob Bleed deserves a lot of credit for that, and I think Vaphead is also producing them. Many guys dont have the time, space, etc to build a swept frame for an A based rod. I have modified a number of A frames thoughout the years, but if I were doing it today, I would definately get either a Z'd or swept frame from one of those guys.

From the appearance standpoint, the front Z should be under the toeboards. But the swept A frame is beautiful to behold.

 

Are you sure?

I don't see no "Z".

 

Yes, Doane Spencer....z'd