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Technical Don't waste your money

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by coilover, May 10, 2017.

  1. coilover
    Joined: Apr 19, 2007
    Posts: 681

    coilover
    Member
    from Texas

    Needed some bolts for the steering arms on a 48 Plymouth so naturally bought grade 8. Inside of rotor was brushing the head of the bolts so chucked up in lathe and being grade 8 figured I'd have to grind them. Carbide tool was in the holder so decided to give it a try---cut like butter. Traded carbide for HSS tool and still cut off big bites. Chucked one of the nuts up and same thing. Then used hack saw with a HF blade and sawed a groove in one. The nuts/bolts came from Fastenal but I'd be every supplier has the same fake Chinese bolts. For control I dug up some ring gear bolts for a 37 Buick and flywheel bolts for a 46 Ford. Hack saw blade would just leave shiny mark but not cut at all. If someone like ARP actually has real American hardware that's what I'll buy and damn sure not pay big bucks for grade 8 when I'm not even getting grade 5.
     
  2. elgringo71
    Joined: Oct 2, 2010
    Posts: 3,515

    elgringo71
    Member

    Thanks for the heads up, this is good to know
     
  3. At some point this shit gets dangerous.:rolleyes:
     
  4. Same goes for drill bits, toggle switches, self tapping screws and threaded pipe fittings. Junk
     

  5. I wouldn't want through hardened bolts on my suspension, they would be too brittle and snap. Grade 8 means they have a tensile strength of around 150,000 pounds and a shear strength of around 60% of their tensile strength. They are also ductile which is what you want. This is given they are actually torqued as required with a torque wrench, not "mechanic's feel".
     
    lowlid30, 54vicky, treb11 and 3 others like this.
  6. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 20,869

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    What's a torque wrench?
     
  7. It's some kind of bird, probably.
     
    CoolYourJets, Hyfire, FlatJan and 8 others like this.
  8. Same reason you don't QUENCE any front axel or spindles in water or any other forged part after heating and bending. It makes it brittle and you don't want brittle. Grade 5 bolts are more brittle than grade 8.
     
    Hudson31 likes this.
  9. Be sure to get back to Fastenal about the problem and raise hell. That is the only way we can stop this kind of problem. Maybe they are not even aware of it. I remember when a bunch of crappy fasteners got into the space shuttle, that was a very expensive rework.

    Charlie Stephens
     
  10. I just set my elbow and I get pretty damn close.:p
     
    jw179251 and Jet96 like this.
  11. Hombre
    Joined: Aug 22, 2008
    Posts: 1,070

    Hombre
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Are you substituting a grade 8 bolt for a "Hardened" bolt? Are they not two completely different things? With two completely different jobs.
     
  12. itsonsucka
    Joined: Apr 26, 2017
    Posts: 30

    itsonsucka

    Hard is brittle and grade 5 are not they usually are nickel plated which is soft. Grade 8 bolts are stronger bolts. Harden bolts have different head sizes example 1/2 grade 5 or 8 bolt has a 3/4 inch head and a harden bolt has a 7/8 head

    Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk
     
    Model A Vette likes this.
  13. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 5,871

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Quench, and I'm not sure Grade 5 is more brittle than grade 8. There’s an argument that grade 8’s are more brittle than grade 5’s and that argument claims you shouldn’t use them. Well, first you need to understand what the term “brittle” really means. Brittleness in bolts is defined as failure at stresses apparently below the strength of the bolt material with little or no evidence of plastic deformation. Typically, fasteners are not brittle below 180 ksi ultimate tensile strength. Grade 5’s have an ultimate tensile strength of 120 ksi and a grade 8 fastener has an ultimate tensile strength of 150 ksi. This is why brittle is a relative term. Nearly all fasteners are considered ductile except some made from PH 15-6 Mo, 17-4 PH and 17-7 PH.

    Some of this info is copied from: http://tinelok.com/grade-5-vs-grade-8-fasteners/
     
  14. Hombre
    Joined: Aug 22, 2008
    Posts: 1,070

    Hombre
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    OK, But was not the comparison stated by the OP, between a Grade 8 and a Flywheel bolt and a bolt for a ring gear. Are those two "NOT" hardened bolts?
     
    54vicky likes this.
  15. 2935ford
    Joined: Jan 6, 2006
    Posts: 3,774

    2935ford
    Member

    x2 on that
     
    lothiandon1940 likes this.
  16. 2935ford
    Joined: Jan 6, 2006
    Posts: 3,774

    2935ford
    Member

    The sad part may be....that's all they can get now!
    But to charge for grade 8 and not being grade 8 IS something they can do about it!
     
    lothiandon1940 likes this.
  17. 117harv
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 6,590

    117harv
    Member

    Over seas manufacturing can make any range of quality, they make the quality the US company wants to pay for. Calling their parts junk is talking trash about our US companies, plain and simple.
     
    burl and tfeverfred like this.
  18. junior 1957
    Joined: Dec 10, 2006
    Posts: 217

    junior 1957
    Member

    purchased four boxes of hose clamps a few weeks back, they all stripped when hand tightening with a nut driver as soon as all the slack was gone
     
    54vicky and Alonzo "Lon" Wilson like this.
  19. tfeverfred
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 15,792

    tfeverfred
    Member Emeritus

    What brand and what company sold them? Did you take them back?
     
  20. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 16,449

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Wow, the HAMB does have a fact checker!
     
    jw179251 and Bandit Billy like this.
  21. I've been taking a cleaned assortment of gennie ford bolts to the local swap meets for over a year and nobody has even asked about them. The old Ford bolts have no markings on the heads and I was once told they're a grade 8 bolt. They're all chassis bolts and engine bolts. I'd have no problem using them in a high load situation. Now that China has saturated the bolt market, I believe I'll just keep them.
     
  22. itsonsucka
    Joined: Apr 26, 2017
    Posts: 30

    itsonsucka

    Almost all fasteners are now made over in China or the like .I'm an ironworker by trade and see it everyday the quality go more and more south . We just can not compete with China for labor costs and the fact both the Canadian and American government didn't catch on to China buying such huge amounts of ore till it was to late. They need to throw tariffs and huge penalties for companies cheaping out and buying the shit as their own

    Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk
     
    mikhett likes this.
  23. This might be true about US companies outsourcing for more profit but most chain hardware stores carry brands that are made and owned by foreign countries. The only US connection is the mark up at the store. Unfortunately this is where you have to go when you need a part to get your car home or make an emergency repair at your residence.
     
  24. They bought all our tooling and equipment at scrap price too. Get the scrap price high enough and everything went.

    God help us if china gets pissed because we won't have ANY bolts to bitch about. Nor could we make them.
     
    jw179251 likes this.
  25. I really don't think that is valid means to determine if a fastener is grade 8 or high quality. I've cut down high quality made in the US ARP fasteners, and wheel studs and they cut quite easy (hacksaw or band saw) and hit them on the belt sander. There is a lot more to it. Here's some good reading. Note in the metallurgy tab:

    With steels, as the strength goes up, the toughness decreases. At too high a strength, the metal tends to be brittle. And threads accentuate the brittleness. A tool steel which can be heat-treated to 350,000 psi, would be a disaster as a bolt because of the threads.

    http://www.arp-bolts.com/p/technical.php#p7TPMc1_4

    I bet the Fastenal brand are actually pretty good.
     
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  26. tfeverfred
    Joined: Nov 11, 2006
    Posts: 15,792

    tfeverfred
    Member Emeritus

    Maybe some of the U.S. companies need to request a higher quality in the products they have made over seas?
     
    jw179251 likes this.
  27. Most everything is built or speced out at bare minimum requirements. That is because only a few people are willing to go beyond bare minimum.

    Folks drive 5 miles out of the way to save $1.00 on tank of gas, they will drive 15 miles to save $2.00. They do the bare minimum on their jobs, ride around on overdue repairs, they also don't want to get raped on bolts and hardware.

    Example - seems kinda high, $2.00 for 10 pieces. 20 mins earlier Napa sold my buddies wife 6 connectors exactly like these for $12.00 @ $2.00 each.
    image.jpeg

    ARP stepped up to redesign a FORD bolt/stud because they break. Costs you $159.00. Ford sells them for $27.00 each BUTTTT,,, they are special order and come in 4 packs and you need to buy the whole pac. Costs you $108 to get the one you need/ That is exactly like the one that broke off flush in the differential. Ever have one of these let loose? Car dives like a forklift with busted pitman arm.

    image.png
     
    26 T Ford RPU likes this.
  28. badshifter
    Joined: Apr 28, 2006
    Posts: 3,430

    badshifter
    Member

    View attachment 3530206 IMG_7928.JPG Doesn't everybody have access to a Danly 250 ton press to make their own bolts?

    We still make bolts here, this is the start of the bolts for the fuel tanks on the Space X rocket.. Inconel. Good stuff.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 10, 2017
    jw179251, bct, kidcampbell71 and 8 others like this.
  29. There's a lot to learn about automotive fasteners and a few really informative books out there about the subject - what I have done for my race cars and hot rods is used AN hardware (aircraft bolts) that I buy from Aircraft Spruce, paying attention to grip lengths (the unthreaded part of the bolt) and making sure that critical suspension brackets and such use the fasteners in double shear, whenever possible. All the fasteners used in the suspensions on our hot rods don't come to a lot of money compared to the cost of suspension failure at any speed.
     
  30. stanlow69
    Joined: Feb 21, 2010
    Posts: 6,400

    stanlow69
    Member

    I used to buy grade 8 bolts all the time, until I learned there proper use. They break before they stretch, thus more Brittle. Grade 7 will stretch before breaking thus appear more stronger. Only use grade 8 in non moving parts like motors and such. Grade 9 would be like aircraft. But not exactly.
     

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