The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Dog_Patch, Aug 12, 2014.
I can pick those up for ya, if you need me toooo!!
I gotta correct ya my motor is 454 inches. It's a 4" stroke and a 4.25 bore . My motor does have 3mm high tension rings in it with no issues this year. We did have oil issues last year but only change was went from low tension rings to high tension rings and had new builder do the rite hone. Mine when it had oil issue blew oil out the breathers REALLY bad never blew oil out the exhaust. Yours still don't make sense to me but I'm no professional. I hope you get it figured out I know the feeling fighting a never ending battle with these odd ball engines.
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Tony, first of all, Carrillo didn't make your pistons, CP did, and me, Ric Panneton designed them this way, because you gave me full rein to do what I thought was best, and funny thing, it all worked fine last year. The last we spoke, was a couple weeks before Clay City, when we were sorting out, getting your pistons sent to Rebco, to add a couple more drain back holes, (all of which we paid for), as you, and your buddies were sure it needed.., your point of reference, the Wiseco pistons you have with 4-5 holes per side. Last time you talked about those, you were throwing them under the bus, for missing the valve location pocket by .250 (1/4").., well, at least they know how to put more holes in the oil ring groove? Before I go any further, the reason you haven't heard from me until now, is that I've been pulling your knifes out of my back, and working on a solution for you, but first, some facts.
Those holes, that you are certain there aren't enough of, are not just drains, but also "oil introducers", they are a two way door, you can cause the same or more oil control problems with too many, as you can, with too few. While being an oil return, if you have too many, especially in the thrust load area of the skirt, (the middle), you can"black death / scuff" the skirts, because of a lack of lubrication. Reversely, they can also allow too much oil to come back through the holes, and over load the second rings (they are the primary wipers of the excess oil from the cylinder wall while the piston is on the down stroke), and the oil rings ability (it is the secondary wiper, with two wiper rails, and a spring loaded expander to apply pressure to them against the cylinder wall) to control oil. In my 23 years of experience, as a "piston guy", I believed it best to start out on your pistons, with two drains per side, considering that you would be running a pretty big, windage causing stroke (4.530), in your new wet sump engine, because the wrist pin intrusion, into your oil ring groove, is also and oil return (even with the spacer rail there, to help bridge the gap, for the oil ring groove floor). By the way, I used 4 drains for Jeff, because his combo does NOT, have the pin bore, into the oil ring groove, but you may notice that they are .094 holes, while yours are .125 ea. The reason the holes are machined half way into the top of the pistons skirt, is to cut down, on un wanted oil introduction back on to the skirt. If the oil holes are machined into the center of the ring groove, the lower oil ring rail doesn't get too aid very much in wiping, as the oil gets to return / introduce, through the expander and holes, without including the lower rail in the work. There is a catch with this system, you have to run lighter weight oil, like you did last year, heavier weight oils, like you have been running this year are harder to get to flow through the smaller oil ring expander, as its just a smaller "window". Smaller, lighter tension rings (compression, second, and oil rings), have better point pressure, and follow cylinder wall distorsion better than wide face, high tension rings, while also reducing power robbing friction, another reason why, I chose them, and they worked last year. Another point of reference for me choosing this ring?, countless other wet sump, non-vacuum assisted engine combos such as 572-604" late Hemi engines (they use 4.500-4.750 stroke cranks), we make pistons for, used by "For Hemi's Only" (in Canada, and now also the owners of Keith Black). They have as many of these engines driven on the street with regularity, as they do on the race track, with excellent success, and they use alumimum blocks that are notorious for cylinder wall distortion, no matter who the block manufacturer. I can type for a week on this subject, and sight example after example of how, and when this ring pack has worked flawlessly, but not without some expertise in the honing process. You sighted that Akerly & Childs, told you that your combo should not have been built with oil rings, well, they are also the same guys who told a Pro Mod customer of mine, several years ago, that "there was no way, an .043 x .043 x 3mm ring pack (same as yours), would work in his blown Alky 525" aluminum block Pro Mod Hemi engine". They told him that ring back would not even work well enough to start the engine, but this guy trusted me, and tried it anyway, while many other "experts" also told him he was nuts. The car owner was Chris Russo (Quain may remember him), the engine builder, was Mike Faucher, you know, the same guy that took Jeffs 427 Cammer, from an oil spewing / blow by breathing, no horse power weak pig, and turned it into something that hauls the mail, and makes other A/G drivers a little nervous.., and he has no more oil control problems. How this?, well, to start with, the block was honed by someone with experience with these little power making rings. Back to Chris Russo, they ran the whole IHRA season, and won two races, while only using 12 cylinders worth of pistons & rings that year, while the rest of the field went through pistons and rings like top fuel teams. You changed more things last year, than just a re-hone, and rings, and by the way, that thing is so bad, that it should only blow oil n smoke that bad, if the oil rings were missing, so there is still a bigger problem than oil ring width, or the size, number, or location of the oil return / introduction holes. Oblviously, you know this, and have done a great job of working on the engine, to find a solution.
I have asked, a friend, and customer in Mooresville, NC, Tom Ghent, if he would take a look at your parts, and hone the block for you, and I would take care of the bill, personally, and he has agreed. Toms credentials? Recently retired engine specialist for Roush Yates Racing. Current employment?, block maching, consultant and dyno work for many elite engine builders, all done at his home machine shop, and if it matters, he personally, is a Mopar guy. All you have to do, is call me, and say yes, instead of slinging crap on the internet. If you choose not too, then God bless, and all the best in your new path.
PS. You CAN build a piston for your current rod length, with a 3/16 ring groove (however, not without the ring spacer), so not sure I'd go out, and spend more money on shorter rods just yet. I'm still your friend (maybe not Kim's), no matter how you decide. Sincerely Ric.
Jeff, yours aren't high tension, they are "standard" tension, which in the world of 3mm, is 10-14 lbs.
Popcorn and beer, I'm on this.
Tony,you're right at the one yard line with getting this thing sorted out,don't throw in the towel yet!
And what Ric is offering looks like not only superior customer service,but going above and beyond for a friend.He's never failed to answer my phone,and I know he worked pretty hard to help get Jeff's issues sorted the first time the Cammer was together.That also turned out to not be the fault of the pistons....Just food for thought.
I don't know when this all turned nasty and got personal,but you're a good guy,Tony.You're above this sort of stuff.
It's not too late to let Ric have his guy give you a hand getting this fixed up.His resume looks sort of like the Southern version of the gentleman that Ric hooked me up with to get my motor up and running.
I'd take that ball and run with it,instead of sinking $5000-6000 into brand new rods and pistons and starting all over again.
The flip side of the coin is,you could throw in the towel,and sell me a sweet set of custom Hemi pistons and rods for a screamin deal...
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As far as your call to me about pouring something down the stacks to stop the puddle, I honestly don't remember the call, and since I have 3 different incoming phone #'s including texts, and emails, I have forgotten to reply back at times, to other customers as well, and this is why you got no response. I'm sorry for that, just human, and no, I don't know of some magic elixir to pour down the stacks to stop puddling. As far as the email to Total Seal, you already had my answer, Ed's who you called before me, and Keith's who you talked to afterwords. I have just emailed you that entire "email chain", so that you can see, that I never called you a "dumb ass", or anything else. I only suggested to Keith, that he and I should talk, before he responds to you, so that we could compare notes on all the different opinions you had already gotten. The three sets of rings that you bought at $300 a set, where actually $195 set, my cost, (I also just emailed you a copy of the order for the first set you bought in May, to refresh your memory), I didn't want to post it here as it has your credit card, and address info on it.., by the way these were not experimental rings, but the very same rings you ran successfully last year, well, except you had a lower tension oil ring last year. I understand, that you have honed the bores a couple different ways this year, with different equipment, but you can also give the best auto paint supplies to Ray Charles to paint a car, and its still not gonna turn out well. I'm offering real help, from a pro machinist, and if he says the pistons, and rings were screwed from day one, I will replace them. As far as treating you like a nobody because you've only bought "a set of pistons", I didn't treat you like a nobody when
I gave you a $1500 below WD discount for your parts, or made time to drive 4 hours to your house from my hotel, to show you how to assemble the pistons, and rods, and take you and Kim to dinner, while I was in North Carolina looking for a house to move to, I did that because I considered you a friend, and wanted to help you. If you are so concerned about the money, why are you buying a whole new crank, piston, and rod assembly? Your putting nearly a .100 more stroke in, and a .350 shorter rod.., more windage, worse rod angle / cylinder wall loading, and more piston hanging out of the cylinder wall at bottom dead center, which is gonna aggravate piston rock at BDC, aaaand ring seal! Just my opinion, which I know means nothing to you now.., I truly do hope it works out for you, and by the way, you may want think about a new camshaft, as the piston is gonna accelerate even faster, and require different valve opening / closing events. Gene got one set of pistons & rods for the Moonlighter @ NO CHARGE, because we wanted to help bring him and the Willys back, and he remains grateful, has never complained once, and remains a true friend. He did have what he thought was not enough piston to valve, and I explained why I thought he had enough. Gene wanted a little more room, so we came up with a cam, that would work, and run better in the end anyways, he paid our cost for it. You didn't need to drag him into this, he is a true gentleman, and has no part in your problems. The first set of Skairlane pistons were made for a cam in the 270-280' duration @ .050, because that's what I was told would be used. It was found upon assembly, that there was no piston to valve clearance, so the valve reliefs were recut, at no charge. It was later found, that the valves were still lightly touching the pistons, but there was not enough room to cut them any further, so we made new pistons, at NO CHARGE (you can ask Jeff), it was later discovered, that the parts supplier, had sent cams @ 298' of duration at .050, and this is the reason the pistons had to be re-cut, then remade for clearance, no fault of mine as the designer nor my employer CP. After Jeff took the engine to Mike Faucher, at my suggestion, and Mike had the cams re-machined, for the proper specs, we made another new set, and sold them and the rings at our cost.., not because we were at fault for anything, but because Jeff is also a friend.., not a NASCAR customer.
Shame on me, if I didn't respond quick enough for you, I have a wife, and adopted kids, and a life. I spend enough time on computers, and phones for work, and I ought to be able to spend time with them.., not glued to my computer & phone monitoring your every pass. You told me this afternoon, after I texted you, "silence is not a good garage companion", well, you have my cell #, and I have never told you to only call me during "work ours", so the silence was yours too.
When I texted you this afternoon, and asked you to hold up buying new rods etc, because I was working on a solution, you told me that "I was gonna have to talk to Miss Kim now, and she's not happy to say the least, and that you doubted it was salvageable at this point". I experienced a similar situation in 2008, when Frank Iaconia couldn't give Mike Edwards competitive engines for his Pro Stock program, and when pressed by Mikes wife, Frank laid the blame on CP Pistons, for an inferior product.., that he had chosen himself to use. In 2009, Mike, hired Nick Ferri to run his new engine program. Nick chose to use CP Pistons, which Mike, and his wife were "not happy about to say the least", but they agreed to let Nick do, what he was hired to do, and Mike Edwards dominated that season, and won the Pro Stock championship, with the same piston company that was blamed for his miserable season the year before. I know you don't run Pro Stock, and I know your engine has different needs, but don't you see the similarities here?
I've said my peace, and I'll say no more. Good luck Tony.
OK boys, now that we have some dialog it's time to mend some fences! No matter the direction of the end result!!!!
Time for a handshake, a beer and move toward an amicable resolution gentlemen.
I'm tired of getting sprayed by urine from this thread.
You think you've got problems, a hurricane is 70 miles from my house! lol
Hate to read this.....was hoping to read the solution and see if I was even close one my pea brain guess.
A grown man should never ever try and tell another grown man what he should or shouldn't do, and I certainly make no pretense to do that know. It has been my experience that anytime you air your dirty laundry in public one or both parties come away embarrassed much worse than if they had taken care of the damn thing just between the two of them.
I know there is two sides to every disagreement , but airing it out here does not seem to be the best for both parties.
It seems like the offer to take it to a well respected engine man for free would be an opportunity
I would not pass up. I know there is time and money involved in travel, but if it solves the problem then that's money well spent. May even result in more horsepower.
Good luck on what ever direction you choose to go.
OK, ok....lets get back to the original purpose of this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!! Old cars, good times, good friends!!
I didn't read the book above that Ric wrote - skimmed it - again there are phones in this world and they ring.
We made about 15 passes yesterday at Paradise - open test - only me and Boogie Time. That was fun. The car will dry out if I make a pass and click it off at the finish line and coast downhill back to the starting line. Did it 12 or 15 times which was pretty fun. But if you try to drive around the pit area its a giant leaking smoke show.
Its been a fun thread but I'm killing it now. No need to end on a sour note. It was a real nice day with good friends.
This is what I've been doing to try and keep up with the Double XX car in D/G. He runs a half second quicker than 90% of the class, so anything helps. I believe I have a ton more potential to get out of this Lil unit!
Had to space them out because of the coil springs. Speaking of Springs, I also took a leaf out of the front springs. They were very stiff, the ones from Speedway. Has anyone else used these? I believe Quain said he had to do the same thing. I removed the long one, second from the top. Also gonna make some rear shock and Jack bolt adjustments when we get to the track!
Man we are going to miss you.
Take a break and start a new fresh one when you feel like it.
Sorry to see a fantastic thread end like this. One of my favorite ones and looked forward to it every day. Best wishes on all of your efforts moving forward.
I've read probably 90% of this thread, such a cool car. Great pictures and informative posts. Why end it over something like this?
Holy crap - that didn't go over well my TXTs blew up and been on the phone with some guys to not kill the thread .
Way too much time and effort went into this thread to delete it, imho. It can be closed for replies, and put the title back to the original. Hope you change your mind. Thanks for the ride.
I don't consider myself at all knowledgeable on all the vacuum pumped crankcases, dry sumps, etc. of today's big time pro drag racing. But I damn sure have been involved in, followed the build of, and built lots of engines running the sort of setups required to compete under SEG rule in the past 64 years since I first saw the inside of an engine that I tore down.
And I believe that a longer skirt on the piston, especially considering the size of bore and stroke, a wider ring, and above all, an adequate amount of oil drainback holes in the oil ring groove would be much better at oil control.
And as was said by the warden in "Cool Hand Luke" there's been a lack of communication.
As for "airing dirty laundry in public" I do have to wonder if the latest burst of communication and offers from Ric would have occurred if all this hadn't come out in the open.
Love that helmet.
I considered locking it until we get a working engine so we can all see what the final fix will be. Let's just agree to forget that me and Ric disagree on ring size and not talk about it anymore.
Whew !! Good stuff Tony, keep it coming.
See you Saturday. Will you have any XL Tshirts?
I need one for Ethan
Yessir we have shirts! Check what ol Beach Bum Jim pulled off! Its tough to sew this heavy thread. He knocked it out of the park!
I'm at 3 leafs now on the Speedway setup. I don't recall what the original number of leaves (leafs) were.
I started with 4, but I do know they sell ones with 6 leafs as well
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