My Deuce frame is bone stock with the k-member,front crossmember, steering, axle and wishbone. With a '40 Flathead butted up to a '39 loader and a '32 trans mount, it all fits like a glove. Instead of using the little stock '32 front mounts, (man those are high dollar!) I opted for a vintage set of Hurst mounts that bolt to the frame rails and accept the Ford type biscuits, and all bolts to the water pumps. Done deal. Now if I take my little 283 Chevy v-8, and add a Cragar adapter to the rear and a Hurst saddle mount to the front, It all bolts in the same location. Yeah there are exhaust and radiator issues, but the only clearence problem I encountered was I had to change the old oil filter cannister to a later short screw on filter to clear the wishbone. This is way to easy. These two motors are almost identical in size. So what did Duntov work on when he was with Ford? Back in the late Fifty's, early 60's, I can't remember hearing all this Chevy bashing if ya had one in your HotRod. Didn't happen. It was just the Ford verses Chevy debate. But we never called them SBC's either. That name didn't exist until the BBC came along in '65. I'm done. ----------------------------------------------------------- "Sounded like a little Chevy V-8 to me."
Actually, the small-block Chevy was based on the Pontiac V-8. It's a lighter, more-refined version of the engine, and many of the same engineers worked on it. Look at the basic block architecture, port layout, rocker design, and oil system. The SBC was a chance for the same engineers to re-do the Pontiac and cure the little things they felt could be improved upon. That's why the SBC is so good - it's a refined version of an already-good design. Scotch~!
Interesting... I'd read it was a refinement of the 303 Olds. Either way, cool that it bolts up so well. I love it when a plan comes together... Jay
The adapter manufacturers made the mounts to fit into a Ford chassis. So no wonder the Chev fits where the flatty used to be. alchemy
When I was at "HARRAHS" Auto museum in the early eighties I saw a Chevy V-8 from 1917...! That was a proto-type and had exposed rocker arms and push rods..., very much like the aircraft engines of the time. Found out that many of Fords ideas didn't just come out of the blue..., but he was able to actually get other peoples ideas to work...! There was a 1909 Thomas with a Telescopic Tilt wheel on it, I'll bet that the Thomas Auto corporation wasn't credited for it! Wonder who was...?
Back in '95 there was an excellent piece in HotRodMag about the development of the SBC. Duntov was one of the designers and although he never worked with Ford, he was intimately familiar with Fords, and hot rods. His written notes to the GM brass implied that the Chevy, whilst coming late to the OHV party should take advantage of their timing and learn from others shortfalls, and unlike the other manufacturers, bear the young hot rodders in mind. He recommended the SBC and all of its components be easily modified/replaced/ interchanged, and dimensions mimic as closely as possible the hotrodders engine of choice, ie.flathead. Its no coincidence the SBC measures the same, or smaller, than the flathead.
Good point Alchemy. But I won't give all the credit to the adapter builders. The chevy will even accept the front Ford mounts! My point was it just seems that somebody(s) was really looking at making this little overhead close to the same size as the Ford. If you put the same type of adapters on the Caddy, Olds, Buicks, or Pontiacs, They won't just bolt in to the same location as the Chevy. ----------------------------------------------------------- "OPOSSUM BENDERS" Central Missouri Chapter
there isn't much difference in size between th SBC and the ford flathead V-8.....that's why they fit into `35-40 ford frames real easy....in fact,a SBC can be installed in one with no welding, just simple brackets and using holes all ready in the ford frame. here's some pictures of a 283 in my `36 ford frame...you can see the fabricated motor mount bolted in.
I thought that Ed Cole and group designed the V8 Chevrolet, starting development in 1952. Then Duntov joined later to add enhancements to the motor for Corvette applications (Feb 1998 Car Craft, Page 61). I'm curious now. Let me know.
Yes ford designed it! The SBC is actually a reworked ardun conversion that through years of minor changes evolved into the SBC. Henry Ford had a gambeling habit and lost a bet with one on GM's desiners and had to hand over the blue prints to that highly evolved flathead in late 1954 in a casino in Vegas. Sworn to secrecy GM took on the little engine as it's own. Alas we now have the SBC. My great unckle's sisters daoghters boyfriend was there and has contimplated on writing a book about it. But since Ford cannot back up the facts, and not having the GM, designers whereabouts, writing a factual book is out of the question. But he is thinking about writing a childres book about it! Hope this clears up all the questions and myths that have been floating around for years!
I heard somewhere (myth? B.S.?) that Duntov-or someone with early input on the small block-had offered it to Ford first and Ford turned it down....
Here's the real story. Listen up. Henry ford first designed the 32 V-8 as an overhead. But at that time the depresssion was just ending and there was a shortage of wood. When he contracted with ACME crate co. they said they couldn't build a crate tall enough to get the overhead motor in it. So Henry redesigned the V-8 with the valves in the block so ACME crate co. could ship it from the engine plant to the assembly line. Edsel Ford told me that story himself while we were designing the grill for his new model that would set the automobile industry on it's ear. You heard it here first.
I almost Really wanna believe some of the stories shared so far... As for bolt in's to a Ford, I just saw a nailhead With adaptor to stock trans today, in a 48 coupe. One horizontal plate welded to each sides mount to the stock Ford's FH mount on frame. Like it was Supposed to be in there...
Anybody who says a Chevy V-8 isnt the best swap motor in history[and lowest dollar per horsepower too] is just INCREDIBLY SHREWD, BEYOND ALL COMPREHENSION.....
The only guy here with a clue about the genesis of the Chevrolet V8 is the most junior member of the HAMB -- toms33. Ed Cole and his engineering staff were responsible for the Chevrolet V8. Was it really no more than a refined Olds/Cad/Pontiac design? Hardly. Similar features that might lead folks to draw those conclusions can be traced back to some of Boss Kettering's concepts that guided the thinking behind the architectural ground lines for the mid-century GM motors. The Chevrolet V8 benefitted far more from the massive reengineering work that went into the upgraded, traditional I6 that entered into production in 1954. The new Chevy I6 was the first beneficiary of the new lightweight, thin-wall casting technology exploited by Cole's team in the development of the exceptionally good performing new V8 from Chevy, an engine that would come to be the dominant production-based design in auto racing. Love it or hate it, there's no denying that the Chevrolet V8 is the most successful engine design in the history of the industry.
[ QUOTE ] When I was at "HARRAHS" Auto museum in the early eighties I saw a Chevy V-8 from 1917...! That was a proto-type and had exposed rocker arms and push rods..., very much like the aircraft engines of the time. Found out that many of Fords ideas didn't just come out of the blue..., but he was able to actually get other peoples ideas to work...! There was a 1909 Thomas with a Telescopic Tilt wheel on it, I'll bet that the Thomas Auto corporation wasn't credited for it! Wonder who was...? [/ QUOTE ] i rewmember seeing a chevy smallblock book form the sixtys and it showed a prototype cad motor from early 1900s every thing was identical to the small block chevy, but the intake was differnt and it had siamised ports in the center so it had 3 exhaust ports, and in the book it said that was what the small chevy was based off of, i wish i could remember the book everyone thinks im tellin lies....
av8, now you had to go and ruin a perfectly good fantasy tip toe through the tulips by writing down some FACTS that some on here would choose to ignore. How dare you burst the bubble of these SBC naysayers. If the next thing you care to post has anything to do with Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny and those ugly rumors we've all heard whispered about you can just go play somewhere else. Reality TV is on channel 5 here. Frank
And now for the REST of the story. After a intensive investigation by the US Trade commission it was determined that the wood shortage alleged by the ACME crate co. was a conspiracy between the ACME crate co. and Chrysler Corp. It appears they were hording the extra wood for the crates that the Chrysler Corp. needed to ship the Hemi motor that was introduced in 1951. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Now, do youse guys want the real true story? I know this is true because I heard it around the campfire at the "end of the road." Ulysses M. Maxwell needed a new engine design to power his new 1916 Maxwell, to win the Great American race. The Star Automobile company was kickin his ass with a 1254 cu. in. monster in a 6500 lb car. He hired Hymie Cole to design a winning engine cabable of reliable power to move a 2100 lb roadster: the 1916 Maxwell. Hymie and his company designed a 530 lb V/8 of 283 cu. in. with stamped steel rockers on overhead valves that put out an astounding 180 hp! He painted them all orange, the national color for his native Latvia. The official colors for the Maxwell was red and the Orange and red clashed horribly. Ulysses Maxwell wouldn't allow an orange painted engine in his red cars and Hymie Cole wouldn't paint his engine any other color. The disagreement ended in a stalemate and Hymie pulled his new orange engine outa Maxwell's car. He used it as a coffee table for years and even moved it to the USA with his family in 1921. The orange engine sat in the basement of their modest home in Roanoake, Va, crated up [hence, the name "orange crate"]until Hymie's son found it after Hymie died suddenly in 1949. Little Cole claimed it as his own invention in 1954 and it went on to become the small block chevy... And now you know the rest of the story..........
Rocky....... Do you really think I believe this story? Everybody knows that Hyme Cole's winning engine had only 265 cubic inches....and no provision for an oil filter was casted into the block! The design of this v-8 took advantage of the large oil resevoir mounted above the engine in the 1916 Maxwell. The oil was simply gravity feed into the engine, and discharged out the oil overflow (later this pipe would become the road draft tube) to the ground. It is also rumored, that this "wasted lubrication" design was copied from Harley and Davidson. Now we know the REST of the story......................... HAPPY NEW YEARS EVERYBODY! ---------------------------------------------------------- "OPOSSUM BENDERS" Central Missouri Chapter
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] When I was at "HARRAHS" Auto museum in the early eighties I saw a Chevy V-8 from 1917...! That was a proto-type and had exposed rocker arms and push rods..., very much like the aircraft engines of the time. Found out that many of Fords ideas didn't just come out of the blue..., but he was able to actually get other peoples ideas to work...! There was a 1909 Thomas with a Telescopic Tilt wheel on it, I'll bet that the Thomas Auto corporation wasn't credited for it! Wonder who was...? [/ QUOTE ] i rewmember seeing a chevy smallblock book form the sixtys and it showed a prototype cad motor from early 1900s every thing was identical to the small block chevy, but the intake was differnt and it had siamised ports in the center so it had 3 exhaust ports, and in the book it said that was what the small chevy was based off of, i wish i could remember the book everyone thinks im tellin lies.... [/ QUOTE ] I know what I saw and I took pictures of the damn thing..., I'll get some one to scan the photo's so others can see! Was "HARRAH's" museum in error...?
The Jalopy Journal
