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Did Ford design the Chevy V-8 ?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by visor, Dec 30, 2003.

  1. visor
    Joined: Aug 11, 2002
    Posts: 513

    visor
    Member
    from Missouri

    My Deuce frame is bone stock with the k-member,front crossmember, steering, axle and wishbone.

    With a '40 Flathead butted up to a '39 loader and a '32
    trans mount, it all fits like a glove.

    Instead of using the little stock '32 front mounts, (man
    those are high dollar!) I opted for a vintage set of
    Hurst mounts that bolt to the frame rails and accept the
    Ford type biscuits, and all bolts to the water pumps.
    Done deal.

    Now if I take my little 283 Chevy v-8, and add a Cragar
    adapter to the rear and a Hurst saddle mount to the
    front, It all bolts in the same location. Yeah there are
    exhaust and radiator issues, but the only clearence problem
    I encountered was I had to change the old oil filter cannister to a later short screw on filter to clear the
    wishbone.

    This is way to easy. These two motors are almost identical
    in size.
    So what did Duntov work on when he was with Ford?

    Back in the late Fifty's, early 60's, I can't remember
    hearing all this Chevy bashing if ya had one in your HotRod.
    Didn't happen. It was just the Ford verses Chevy debate.

    But we never called them SBC's either. That name didn't
    exist until the BBC came along in '65.
    I'm done. [​IMG]
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "Sounded like a little Chevy V-8 to me."
     
  2. Scotch
    Joined: May 4, 2001
    Posts: 1,489

    Scotch
    Member

    Actually, the small-block Chevy was based on the Pontiac V-8. It's a lighter, more-refined version of the engine, and many of the same engineers worked on it. Look at the basic block architecture, port layout, rocker design, and oil system. The SBC was a chance for the same engineers to re-do the Pontiac and cure the little things they felt could be improved upon. That's why the SBC is so good - it's a refined version of an already-good design.

    Scotch~!
     
  3. Interesting... I'd read it was a refinement of the 303 Olds. Either way, cool that it bolts up so well. I love it when a plan comes together...

    Jay
     
  4. yorgatron
    Joined: Jan 25, 2002
    Posts: 4,228

    yorgatron
    Member Emeritus

    it was the cheap version of the Olds/Cad engines that came out in '49,and by cheap i mean crummy [​IMG]
     

  5. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 17,001

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The adapter manufacturers made the mounts to fit into a Ford chassis. So no wonder the Chev fits where the flatty used to be.

    alchemy
     
  6. When I was at "HARRAHS" Auto museum in the early eighties I saw a Chevy V-8 from 1917...! That was a proto-type and had exposed rocker arms and push rods..., very much like the aircraft engines of the time.

    Found out that many of Fords ideas didn't just come out of the blue..., but he was able to actually get other peoples ideas to work...! [​IMG]

    There was a 1909 Thomas with a Telescopic Tilt wheel on it, I'll bet that the Thomas Auto corporation wasn't credited for it! [​IMG] Wonder who was...? [​IMG]
     
  7. Back in '95 there was an excellent piece in HotRodMag about the development of the SBC. Duntov was one of the designers and although he never worked with Ford, he was intimately familiar with Fords, and hot rods. His written notes to the GM brass implied that the Chevy, whilst coming late to the OHV party should take advantage of their timing and learn from others shortfalls, and unlike the other manufacturers, bear the young hot rodders in mind. He recommended the SBC and all of its components be easily modified/replaced/ interchanged, and dimensions mimic as closely as possible the hotrodders engine of choice, ie.flathead. Its no coincidence the SBC measures the same, or smaller, than the flathead.
     
  8. visor
    Joined: Aug 11, 2002
    Posts: 513

    visor
    Member
    from Missouri

    Good point Alchemy.
    But I won't give all the credit to the adapter builders.
    The chevy will even accept the front Ford mounts!
    My point was it just seems that somebody(s) was really
    looking at making this little overhead close to the same
    size as the Ford.
    If you put the same type of adapters on the Caddy, Olds,
    Buicks, or Pontiacs, They won't just bolt in to the same
    location as the Chevy. [​IMG]
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "OPOSSUM BENDERS"
    Central Missouri Chapter
     
  9. there isn't much difference in size between th SBC and the ford flathead V-8.....that's why they fit into `35-40 ford frames real easy....in fact,a SBC can be installed in one with no welding, just simple brackets and using holes all ready in the ford frame. here's some pictures of a 283 in my `36 ford frame...you can see the fabricated motor mount bolted in.
     
  10. toms33
    Joined: Dec 30, 2003
    Posts: 2

    toms33

    I thought that Ed Cole and group designed the V8 Chevrolet, starting development in 1952. Then Duntov joined later to add enhancements to the motor for Corvette applications (Feb 1998 Car Craft, Page 61).

    I'm curious now. Let me know.
     
  11. trailer-Ed
    Joined: May 15, 2002
    Posts: 1,784

    trailer-Ed
    Member
    from JC, MO

    Yes ford designed it! The SBC is actually a reworked ardun conversion that through years of minor changes evolved into the SBC. Henry Ford had a gambeling habit and lost a bet with one on GM's desiners and had to hand over the blue prints to that highly evolved flathead in late 1954 in a casino in Vegas. Sworn to secrecy GM took on the little engine as it's own. Alas we now have the SBC. My great unckle's sisters daoghters boyfriend was there and has contimplated on writing a book about it. But since Ford cannot back up the facts, and not having the GM, designers whereabouts, writing a factual book is out of the question. But he is thinking about writing a childres book about it! Hope this clears up all the questions and myths that have been floating around for years!
     
  12. I heard somewhere (myth? B.S.?) that Duntov-or someone with early input on the small block-had offered it to Ford first and Ford turned it down....
     
  13. cadlights
    Joined: Jun 12, 2003
    Posts: 865

    cadlights
    Member
    from Hooper, Ut

    Here's the real story. Listen up.
    Henry ford first designed the 32 V-8 as an overhead.
    But at that time the depresssion was just ending and
    there was a shortage of wood. When he contracted with
    ACME crate co. they said they couldn't build a crate
    tall enough to get the overhead motor in it. So
    Henry redesigned the V-8 with the valves in the block
    so ACME crate co. could ship it from the engine plant
    to the assembly line. Edsel Ford told me that story himself while we were designing the grill for his new model that
    would set the automobile industry on it's ear.
    You heard it here first. [​IMG]
     
  14. Rooster
    Joined: Jan 14, 2002
    Posts: 355

    Rooster
    Member

    I almost Really wanna believe some of the stories shared so far...
    As for bolt in's to a Ford, I just saw a nailhead With adaptor to stock trans today, in a 48 coupe. One horizontal plate welded to each sides mount to the stock Ford's FH mount on frame. Like it was Supposed to be in there...
     
  15. Anybody who says a Chevy V-8 isnt the best swap motor in history[and lowest dollar per horsepower too] is just INCREDIBLY SHREWD, BEYOND ALL COMPREHENSION..... [​IMG]
     
  16. av8
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 1,716

    av8
    Member

    The only guy here with a clue about the genesis of the Chevrolet V8 is the most junior member of the HAMB -- toms33.

    Ed Cole and his engineering staff were responsible for the Chevrolet V8. Was it really no more than a refined Olds/Cad/Pontiac design? Hardly. Similar features that might lead folks to draw those conclusions can be traced back to some of Boss Kettering's concepts that guided the thinking behind the architectural ground lines for the mid-century GM motors.

    The Chevrolet V8 benefitted far more from the massive reengineering work that went into the upgraded, traditional I6 that entered into production in 1954. The new Chevy I6 was the first beneficiary of the new lightweight, thin-wall casting technology exploited by Cole's team in the development of the exceptionally good performing new V8 from Chevy, an engine that would come to be the dominant production-based design in auto racing.

    Love it or hate it, there's no denying that the Chevrolet V8 is the most successful engine design in the history of the industry.



     
  17. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,641

    thirtytwo
    Member

    [ QUOTE ]
    When I was at "HARRAHS" Auto museum in the early eighties I saw a Chevy V-8 from 1917...! That was a proto-type and had exposed rocker arms and push rods..., very much like the aircraft engines of the time.

    Found out that many of Fords ideas didn't just come out of the blue..., but he was able to actually get other peoples ideas to work...! [​IMG]

    There was a 1909 Thomas with a Telescopic Tilt wheel on it, I'll bet that the Thomas Auto corporation wasn't credited for it! [​IMG] Wonder who was...? [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ] i rewmember seeing a chevy smallblock book form the sixtys and it showed a prototype cad motor from early 1900s every thing was identical to the small block chevy, but the intake was differnt and it had siamised ports in the center so it had 3 exhaust ports, and in the book it said that was what the small chevy was based off of, i wish i could remember the book everyone thinks im tellin lies....
     
  18. fab32
    Joined: May 14, 2002
    Posts: 13,985

    fab32
    Member Emeritus

    av8, now you had to go and ruin a perfectly good fantasy tip toe through the tulips by writing down some FACTS that some on here would choose to ignore. How dare you burst the bubble of these SBC naysayers. If the next thing you care to post has anything to do with Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny and those ugly rumors we've all heard whispered about you can just go play somewhere else. Reality TV is on channel 5 here.

    Frank
     
  19. cadlights
    Joined: Jun 12, 2003
    Posts: 865

    cadlights
    Member
    from Hooper, Ut

    And now for the REST of the story.
    After a intensive investigation by the US Trade
    commission it was determined that the wood shortage
    alleged by the ACME crate co. was a conspiracy between
    the ACME crate co. and Chrysler Corp. It appears
    they were hording the extra wood for the crates that
    the Chrysler Corp. needed to ship the Hemi motor
    that was introduced in 1951.
    That's my story and I'm sticking to it. [​IMG]
     
  20. Now, do youse guys want the real true story? I know this is true because I heard it around the campfire at the "end of the road."
    Ulysses M. Maxwell needed a new engine design to power his new 1916 Maxwell, to win the Great American race. The Star Automobile company was kickin his ass with a 1254 cu. in. monster in a 6500 lb car. He hired Hymie Cole to design a winning engine cabable of reliable power to move a 2100 lb roadster: the 1916 Maxwell. Hymie and his company designed a 530 lb V/8 of 283 cu. in. with stamped steel rockers on overhead valves that put out an astounding 180 hp! He painted them all orange, the national color for his native Latvia. The official colors for the Maxwell was red and the Orange and red clashed horribly. Ulysses Maxwell wouldn't allow an orange painted engine in his red cars and Hymie Cole wouldn't paint his engine any other color. The disagreement ended in a stalemate and Hymie pulled his new orange engine outa Maxwell's car. He used it as a coffee table for years and even moved it to the USA with his family in 1921. The orange engine sat in the basement of their modest home in Roanoake, Va, crated up [hence, the name "orange crate"]until Hymie's son found it after Hymie died suddenly in 1949. Little Cole claimed it as his own invention in 1954 and it went on to become the small block chevy...
    And now you know the rest of the story..........
     
  21. visor
    Joined: Aug 11, 2002
    Posts: 513

    visor
    Member
    from Missouri

    Rocky.......
    Do you really think I believe this story?
    Everybody knows that Hyme Cole's winning engine
    had only 265 cubic inches....and no provision for
    an oil filter was casted into the block!
    The design of this v-8 took advantage of the large
    oil resevoir mounted above the engine in the 1916
    Maxwell. The oil was simply gravity feed into the engine,
    and discharged out the oil overflow (later this pipe would
    become the road draft tube) to the ground.

    It is also rumored, that this "wasted lubrication" design
    was copied from Harley and Davidson.
    Now we know the REST of the story.........................

    HAPPY NEW YEARS EVERYBODY! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    "OPOSSUM BENDERS"
    Central Missouri Chapter
     
  22. [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    When I was at "HARRAHS" Auto museum in the early eighties I saw a Chevy V-8 from 1917...! That was a proto-type and had exposed rocker arms and push rods..., very much like the aircraft engines of the time.

    Found out that many of Fords ideas didn't just come out of the blue..., but he was able to actually get other peoples ideas to work...! [​IMG]

    There was a 1909 Thomas with a Telescopic Tilt wheel on it, I'll bet that the Thomas Auto corporation wasn't credited for it! [​IMG] Wonder who was...? [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ] i rewmember seeing a chevy smallblock book form the sixtys and it showed a prototype cad motor from early 1900s every thing was identical to the small block chevy, but the intake was differnt and it had siamised ports in the center so it had 3 exhaust ports, and in the book it said that was what the small chevy was based off of, i wish i could remember the book everyone thinks im tellin lies....

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I know what I saw and I took pictures of the damn thing..., I'll get some one to scan the photo's so others can see! [​IMG]

    Was "HARRAH's" museum in error...? [​IMG] [​IMG]
     

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