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Technical ***December 2019 Banger Thread. Hey Santa!***

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Jiminy, Dec 1, 2019.

  1. Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
    hillbilly4008 likes this.
  2. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,884

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The whole timing gear pin in the timing cover is for static timing at TDC
    There is a whole section here on the differences of the cover http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/timingcovers.htm
    I personally don't understand the need for a B cover and if you accidentally get a B cover an an A engine it is going to be hard to static time if you use the procedure for the A engine initial timing.
    So are you using a B dizzy on an A engine?
    The reason I ask is that you set the initial timing on an A with an A dizzy and you use the spark lever to adjust the timing as you operate the engine.
    The B dizzy lost the spark lever and got centrifugal weights (Ford started the dumbing down of the driver)
     
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  3. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 295

    railcarmover

    [​IMG]
    Final issues prior to body mounting..ran the chassis around the neighborhood for a year,100 degree weather turned up a bunch of little leaks including the shift shafts.put one of those 'real deal' oil seals on,should work good.
     
    stillrunners likes this.
  4. I had good luck out of that seal railcarmover.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     
  5. All the best through the season and hope Santa brings his bag by youse house.....that is if you've been good !
     
  6. Thanks for your replies.
    I know, was mainly looking for info on, whether the cam gears are different - does not appear so (noone has mentioned it, so I assume not).
    I agree about dent replacement!
    Exactly why I'm asking: TDC should be the same for A and B engines, so why the difference? Is the B set with an advance/retard, compared to an A, to fit with the rotor position at 1st cylinder firing?
    Neither - a Scintilla magneto, off of a G28T engine, tuned by ear and no overboiling. But recently bought a Ford Junior/Y/? distributor, and since the topic came up, I wanted to know, what I might run into, when/if I actually get around to test it- and if the B cover should set it better - you know, sometimes temporary installs ends up being permanent, so if I break down, a changed cover could make for a faster pop'n'drop roadside install.
     
  7. Lättähattu
    Joined: Oct 29, 2009
    Posts: 19

    Lättähattu
    Member
    from Finland

    Howdy
    I’m working on a lakes modified kind of project, T touring front half, A shortened chassis and B engine. The engine has babbitts that seems to be real good shape, at least what I understand. So I’m not going to have inserts. But I have one stupid question: How to measure right clearance of mains and rods to have right shims there. I tried plastigauge on one bearing, but the babbitt seems to be so soft that plastigauge made a groove on bearing. The grove is harmless, but I think that the plactigauge won’t give the right information that way. How do you deal with clearance issue?

    Thanks for the help
     
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  8. Jet96
    Joined: Dec 24, 2012
    Posts: 1,058

    Jet96
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from WY

    Must be some old plastigage to be that hard ha. Tinfoil method works pretty well. Ford Barn has many threads on this.
     
  9. rwrj
    Joined: Jan 30, 2009
    Posts: 614

    rwrj
    Member
    from SW Ga

    I used the tinfoil method on mine, and it seems to have worked, so far (knock on wood). My poor old babbitt is on it's last legs, though. I'm down to no shims at all on a couple of the rods.
     
  10. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,884

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I know, was mainly looking for info on, whether the cam gears are different - does not appear so (noone has mentioned it, so I assume not).
    I agree about dent replacement!

    The cam gear is the same for the A and the B engine. Think there is confusion with the difference between covers imagine what it would be with different gears.

    Exactly why I'm asking: TDC should be the same for A and B engines, so why the difference? Is the B set with an advance/retard, compared to an A, to fit with the rotor position at 1st cylinder firing?

    The difference is in the distributor
    'A' timing gear cover and the spark lever all the way up in the retarded position, the initial timing is at TDC....or zero distributor degrees This is for 'ease' of hand crank starting. The spark lever is advanced for engine operation under driving conditions. The total travel of the spark lever allows for approximately 20 degrees of distributor advance or 40 degrees total crankshaft advance.
    The B distributor has no lever but has centrifugal weights to advance the timing as you drive. The 'B' timing gear cover has the timing pin hole located 19 degrees before TDC, so this means the initial distributor timing, using the B cover and timing pin is 19 degrees. The B distributor has approximately 7.5 degrees theoretical advance, though Vince Faulter on his FORDGAGAGE web site measured 8.5 degrees advance on a NOS distributor which equates to 17 degrees crankshaft advance....or 36 degrees total advance.
    The difference in the covers is for the difference in the distributors initial timing.

    Neither - a Scintilla magneto, off of a G28T engine, tuned by ear and no overboiling. But recently bought a Ford Junior/Y/? distributor, and since the topic came up, I wanted to know, what I might run into, when/if I actually get around to test it- and if the B cover should set it better - you know, sometimes temporary installs ends up being permanent, so if I break down, a changed cover could make for a faster pop'n'drop roadside install.

    I personally NEVER use a B timing cover. I want to know where Crankshaft TDC is because what is the total distributor advance for your Scintilla magneto? So does the B cover give you the initial advance you need for the total advance you need for the magneto? I suspect not.
    I don't know, I've always timed a distributor/magneto, with centrifugal advance, initial ignition setting off of TDC... and then with the degree mark on the front pulley or damper and a timing light...unless it is an A distributor
    I see no advantage to a B cover and the disadvantage of when the pin drops into the detent, it isn't TDC.
     
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  11. Thanks @winduptoy, this was excatly, what I was asking for.
    Yeah, having different covers and worn on the pin hole cam gear is plenty confusing!
    In the end, I think, the best ways is by knowing the degrees of advance, or tune by vacuum gauge - each one to his own preference, I guess. I don't have degree markings on any of my pulleys (yet), and have just tuned the Scintilla in the "daily"driver (often driven is a better description, '30 A tudor) by ear and overcooking. But for the race car engine (still in planning stage!), I'd like to know, which cover sets timing fastest - if the 19 degree advanced B cover is a head start. Guess a field test is the way to go.

    Again, thank you for your reply, @winduptoy! :)
     
  12. I just made a test run with the new Mitchell installed. Wow![​IMG]

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
     
  13. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 295

    railcarmover

    Tin foil method..make small square of tin foil appx 3/4"x3/4"out of a piece of heavy duty foil folded in half (measure with mic,you want .002 total)..put in bearing shell,torque bearing..gently attempt to rotate crank..if it begins to rotate,remove shims or sand cap (dress flat,draw it against a sheet of emery cloth on glass) re test till its tight (doesnt turn) with the tinfoil installed,that's a .oo15 or so.good to go.repeat for all rods and mains. This method is fast and effective,especially if the engine is in the car.

    rwrj: you can 'dress' the cap to gain a thousandth..ford only used one .002 shim originally,after burnishing the engine (spinning it in at .000 clearance) it only been lately that babbit men use a full shim pack then line bore..
     
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  14. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 295

    railcarmover

    My two cents..pin with A cover for TDC,set rotor center across from #1 pickup...fire engine,use timing light,1/4" on stock diameter crank pulley is five degrees.I mark the pulley with a degree wheel and use a pointer,a cheapie tach dwell to set 500 rpm..hit it dead on...but the ear works good,advance till it runs really good,back it off a tad and done..
     
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  15. brjnelson
    Joined: Oct 13, 2002
    Posts: 437

    brjnelson
    Member

    Yes I love my Mitchell too
    Enjoy it.
    I like 2nd high for around town.
     
  16. I went with the 36%. I had low expectations so obviously I was blowed away yesterday. I agree before it's brought up that that was stupid to run that fast in a Model A. I was at 22 to 2300 rpms at that speed. Needless I'm glad I made the leap for one now.

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  17. Lättähattu
    Joined: Oct 29, 2009
    Posts: 19

    Lättähattu
    Member
    from Finland

    Thanks Railcarmover for the tin foil information! That helped a lot.

    Sent from my S41 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    railcarmover likes this.
  18. rwrj
    Joined: Jan 30, 2009
    Posts: 614

    rwrj
    Member
    from SW Ga

    Railcarmover,
    That's pretty much how I did mine. Nice to know I can dress the caps. Mine had brass shims, so I know it's not the original babbitt.
     
    railcarmover likes this.
  19. railcarmover
    Joined: Apr 30, 2017
    Posts: 295

    railcarmover

    Yes you can sand the caps to clearance,I fit those caps a shade tighter,being your 'oblonging' the bearing. It s an accepted practice,modern pours put full shim packs in to allow adjustment,if over the life of the engine you pull the full pack that bearings not round anymore,its an oval, so when setting the center to .0015,the sides might be .003..better to set at .001 or .0005 and let it burnish,it puts more of the remaining bearing in spec..
     
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  20. Gonna be building a new B engine for my pickup this coming year. Header and intake are ready. Gotta keep up with he young guys.
    [​IMG]
     
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  21. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,018

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.

    computer crash , but ok now ………….
     
  22. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,884

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    yeh, just think if we all had to write one another and send it out via snail mail
     
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  23. Good morning from frosty Tennessee! Have a look at the bank sign.[​IMG][​IMG]

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  24. burl
    Joined: Nov 28, 2007
    Posts: 625

    burl
    Member
    from Minnesota

    That's pretty warm had -10 this morning
     
  25. burl
    Joined: Nov 28, 2007
    Posts: 625

    burl
    Member
    from Minnesota

    not much to show for December but this trinket I was able to acquire.Going to run a mechanical tach on my a motor mallory.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
    Lil'Alb, Old Dawg, Dannerr and 5 others like this.
  26. callcoy
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 132

    callcoy
    Member
    from Nashville

     
  27. callcoy
    Joined: Aug 31, 2008
    Posts: 132

    callcoy
    Member
    from Nashville

    Garagekulture13
    We should get together some time, I was in the Franklin/Columbia areas yesterday working on A's I live outside of Nashville
     
    Jet96 likes this.
  28. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,884

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    So, some old boy that met me at a cruise in, has been bugging me to death about looking at some photos. His life long buddy was a banger guy and passed away last year. This is in his garage with some other banger stuff and a '23 T.
    I have no idea other than it looks single overhead cam. Zottarelli I think is what it reads. This is all the photos he took and these are photos of his photos.....any feedback is
    appreciated IMG_20191218_083333410.jpeg IMG_20191218_083320728.jpeg IMG_20191218_083303027.jpeg

    Sent from my XT1585 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
    mctim64, Old Dawg, Dannerr and 2 others like this.
  29. We've met.

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  30. Forgive my ignorance but will a 6 volt Model A crank at that tempt?

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