I have a contemporary story, that is more like a rant, I suppose. Sometime over the last few years, the dealers in my neck of the woods have come up with another way to milk a few dollars out of every sale. The "paperwork fee". I went to buy a 20 year old pickup from my local new car dealer, settled on a price, had the keys and a temporary tag, and was ready to leave when they proudly announced that they had the lowest "paperwork fee" in the region. After telling me that most dealers were charging $250.00 for providing the paperwork that accompanies ALL vehicle sales, they were only charging $85.00. That's right. $85.00 for a title, mileage statement and a sales tax receipt. I had my car door shut and was turning my key in my ignition before they realized I was seriously not going to pay it, and they could stuff the sale right up their fee. The car I had driven up in, I purchased there in 2007 with no such shenanigans. I think I will try that the next time I sell a vehicle; "And for an additional eighty five dollars, you can even have the title".
$85 bucks documentation fee is CHEAP s55mercury66. The new car dealership I work at, (SEMI RETIRED) now, charges $199. A friend went to a Ford Lincoln dealership last week to pay for a 4 year old Mercedes he purchased. They hit him for $700 bucks doc fee. It's even higher at those dealerships on cars they advertise for waaay behind invoice. They make up their price loss leaders this way and it's legal Revision. As of this summer 2018, we are charging $225 now. Still less money than our closest competition.
They were completely astonished when I refused to pay their paperwork fee, 2many projects. I ended up with the truck, for the price we originally negotiated, and they ate their paperwork fee. They have to supply the paperwork, and woe to them if they do not give you a title within the allotted time frame. I refuse to pay for what should be a basic part of the sale. If this means I never buy a car or truck from a dealer again, well (sniff, sniff), I won't
If we lower the paper work doc fee to a customer, the law and the Attorney General in our state will force us to do similar to all the customers who bought prior to the last sale. It's a very strict law regulating doc fees. You opened a can of worms at that dealership. Now all their customers are legally entitled to their doc fees reduced or returned. We have had to send people packing when they won't pay the $199 fee. The alternative would put us into a financial hardship. I don't know how you skated around it but now the dealer is liable for a financial kick in the ass. Did your dealership reduce the price of the automobile to cover the small doc fee??
I will try to never buy from a dealer again due to the high document fees,I was shocked on the last car I bought 7 years ago and if I do it again that will be the first thing I mention in the negotiations. To me its another scam to get more money out of the customer and is not needed when they have someone in the office doing all the paperwork.
Between the telecom companies, the utility companies, and now car dealers and real estate broker's added fees, the next thing you know we'll be paying a fee for their kid's college tuition on the invoice. A business is supposed to absorb its costs through its revenue stream. Taking stuff and itemizing it after the deal is made is just trickery of another kind. It's like saying you can buy the car at cost, but then the paperwork adds the dealer's rent, electric bill, and employee salaries to the invoice.
That is most likely the way it was handled. The complainer only cared that the final amount was what he was expecting to pay. You guys crack me up. If you knew so mucking futch about running a dealership you'd have one of your own. Most of these shopworn tales are about the totally irresponsible, sometimes criminal, behavior of employees who care not one whit about their employer's business or reputation, or the customer who ultimately, and unwittingly, bought the piece of shit they created. There are some stories here that are funny mistakes, like picking up the wrong VW from a parking lot......no real harm, no foul there, just an innocent mistake. But the majority of these, if essentially true, say a lot about the perpetrators......and it isn't complimentary. Ray
Isn't that how a deal is supposed to go? Imagine, a dealer playing by different rules.. go figure.... I get the 'doc fees'. And a dealer who hits a buyer with them AFTER the deal is struck, is questionable to put it politely, in my book.
[QUOTE="Mike51Merc, post: 10920469, member: 69059 A business is supposed to absorb its costs through its revenue stream. Taking stuff and itemizing it after the deal is made is just trickery of another kind. It's like saying you can buy the car at cost, but then the paperwork adds the dealer's rent, electric bill, and employee salaries to the invoice.[/QUOTE] That is just about exactly what it amounts to. But a few things to remember....those items, rent, salaries, utilities ARE part of "dealer's cost". The factory invoice is only the beginning of the cost calculation. Secondly, you can look to both customer and businessmen when pointing fingers at how a situation evolved. Businesses compete for floor traffic any way they can. Customers are drawn by low advertised prices, even unrealistically low prices. So, they go there to check it out. The business can't sell below 'cost', so other means are devised to raise the transaction price to an acceptable level. It's really no different than the strain between politicians and voters. The public says "tell me the truth".........and, oh by the way, I need your pledge to support my favorite issue. After a long campaign of unrealistic demands from a variety of "interest groups", that's you and me, our neighbors and the folks in the next County and the one over from that one, the poor bastard either doesn't get elected because he "told the truth" ...or he told people what they demanded to hear......and now he is a "lying SOB". Ray
That is just about exactly what it amounts to. But a few things to remember....those items, rent, salaries, utilities ARE part of of "dealer's cost". The factory invoice is only the beginning of the cost calculation. Secondly, you can look to both customer and businessmen when pointing fingers at how a situation evolved. Customers are drawn by low advertised prices, even unrealistically low prices. So, they go there to check it out. The business isn't, and can't, sell below 'cost', so other means are devised to raise the transaction price to an acceptable level. Ray[/QUOTE] We're not talking about politics (at least not according to HAMB rules). Are you really saying it's the customer's fault because they're drawn to low prices? I don't think anybody wants a dealer to work for free or for his kid's to miss a meal. However, you certainly can blame a business that, in an effort to (unfairly) compete, pulls a "bait and switch" by advertising a low price and then adding those costs back on after the deal is made.
The reference to politics was an analogy.......illustrating a point by reference..not a specific discussion of political views. As for your question about the customer's complicity in how business is done, not just automobiles, yes that is exactly what I am saying. To think otherwise is very naive. Do you, yourself, not employ what you know about human nature when dealing with any other person about anything involving negotiation? Your parents when you were a kid, you girlfriend or wife if attached, your kids, the guy at the swap meet, either buyer or seller? Of course you tailer your approach to get the outcome you want, based on experience dealing with these various entities. And, you expect the other party to take care of their interests, just like you are doing. Ray
Look, I don't want to be rude, but I can't believe you actually just said that and believe it. Naïve? I spent my career in negotiations, thank you very much. What you're saying is that it's the customer's fault because human nature dictates that they be lured in and then fooled. That's kind of outrageous.
Look, I don't want to be rude either. I DID NOT SAY that "human nature DICTATES that they be lured in and then fooled". You seem to think people have no responsibility for their own choices/actions and the consequences of those choices. That everyone is childlike and innocent, incapable of rational thought. The problem is that people are quite capable, if they are willing to put some effort into it, but often do not. You know all this, you just don't want to admit it. But, I am willing to bet you are familiar with the old sayings....."you can't cheat an honest man", "a fool and his money are soon parted", "you get what you pay for", "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is". Every scam and flim flam is based on the 'pigeon' thinking he is putting one over on the flim flammer! What the hell do you think this centuries old wisdom is talking about, if not what I have been pointing to? Things are the way they are for a reason, but not always the reason we would like to believe. Ray
The simplest of statistics show that half the people aren't as smart as the other half regardless of their level of personal responsibility. Not only that, but there are people with genius IQs that are profoundly ignorant on some issues and there are people with lower IQs that are profoundly smart on some issues. There's no good excuse to prey on peoples' ignorance, especially not the excuse that they brought it on themselves due to their ignorance. Quotes? How about: "Honesty is the best policy" "..the want of money is the root of all evil" "Do unto others as you wish done to yourself" "Bad Karma" "You reap what you sow"
You may not believe what I am going to say, but here it is ....in my case "you are singing to the choir". I was in the automobile business for several decades and have an excellent reputation among my friends, customers, the Community at large and the factories we did business with. I have sold several items to fellow HAMBERS and so far as I am aware, they all would give me high marks for every aspect of the transaction. What I have attempted to do in my comments is to expand the thinking of the naysayers to realize it is not a totally one sided equation out there. Edit: I notice you very selectively challenged my comments. You had nothing to say about the "irresponsible, probably criminal behavior of dealership employees". Wouldn't their actions deserve sanction too, based on the Golden Rule, and the other quotes you posted, advocating for ethical principles? Ray
I recently went to look at a car for a friend. The car in the advertisement was gorgeous, it had low miles, paint was nice and sharp, new tires, up to date service history. I scheduled an appt and was told to go to the main dealership. The girl making the appt said ok you are scheduled for a test drive at 10:00 am tomorrow. This is a well established dealership in our area not just a used car lot. I went to the main dealership and was told to go to the used car lot. Went to the used car lot where they immediately started trying to take my financials. I told the sales man I am not buying the car I am looking at it for someone else far away. He responded that the car had 5 appointments that day and would probably be sold this afternoon. I waited and waited (mind you I scheduled and appt). First I was told the car was on a test drive (I scheduled the earliest spot). Then I was told the car was not where it was supposed to be. Then I was told the car was at the dealership I had just come from. On the ride back to the other dealer the salesman was very nice and told me how most folks buy their cars site unseen since they are so reputable. I waited again for them to "prep" the car. Finally the salesman came over so I could take my "test drive". The car looked great in the spots that were in the pictures. The dealer forgot to take pictures of the front end damage, interior damage and also forgot to mention it in the ad. The salesman was telling me the bald tires were new low profile tires. He said the car just needed a wash. The interior smelled like someone crapped in it. It was all ripped, drivers side airbag and side curtain blown and hastily repacked. The salesman tried telling me the airbags blew because it was jarred by the lift falling too fast. This car was still sitting on the lift. Can you count how many lies yet? I left the dealership wasted two hours. When the salesman asked if I would be back I said sure when you give me my two hours back. The icing on the cake was when I was called to take a survey, I told the lady even if they gave me a new car they wouldn't see me back there...
In a contest of wits between a professional seller of goods and the general public, the professional always has the upper hand, after all they are the professionals. Sales is an art, a science, and a profession. Taking of information and forcing you to wait are exercises in control. They have you on their home turf and they have scripted mind-games to corral you into following their train of thought. There's a local dealership that has a machine that scans your driver's license in the lobby under the pretext of entering a drawing for a prize and they basically talk you into scanning your license. Scanning your license, in and of itself, is a surrender of will. Since they now have your data, they can quickly run your credit and draw up paperwork without having to ask you again for your data, another surrender of will. Making you wait raises your anxiety and lowers your patience. Eventually you're grateful just to see the salesperson (or the car). Lowering your patience causes you to make decisions quickly to "just get it over". Some people say "I bought it just to get out of there". There are tons of techniques that are used. In conversation, they ask questions with "yes" answers to get you accustomed to saying "yes". They direct your movements (like sit here, or walk there, wait here, etc.) because controlling the physical body leads to controlling the mind. Things don't get sold by accident. I'm not bashing it or calling it "wrong", it simply is what it is.
Most dealers try to sell decent cars from what I see. Suspect or shaky cars go to the lower-tier wholesalers. I was surprised they'd try to pony up a hooptie like that to anyone.
Each and every salesman will get whatever he can from each and every "mark" that stumbles in, period. If they deny it they either A-lying or B-new to the game. Bellevue Honda had 4 senior salesman that would bet weekly/daily on how many items they could tack on to a sale after the negotiation, they called it "packing", the losers bought the winner lunch. I watched a lady (she was tired of the sales process) pay $385 for 4 floor mats for her new Honda Accord (it came with the floor mats), Chris took a Ridgeline box off the shelf pulled the floor mats that were in it, pulled the grey mats from the Accords trunk put them in the box taped it back up and made a big production of opening the box in front of the lady and installing them. Background - A 30 year family friend owns 4 dealerships, I helped write the purchase/partnership agreements and distribution schedule for 2 of them, helped with the hiring, so I'd guess I know I little about them. Some of the most expensive surety bonds (when compared to revenue) are for car dealers, that should tell you something. Why would 43 of 50 states and DORA write legislation prohibiting Felons from being licensed dealers or salesman? Is it because there are so few Felons in car sales?
I like to scope out a car with as little pressure as possible at where I DO NOT intent to buy the car from first. I don't bring a license, no credit card, no check book and don't give them a real name or phone number. I just want to look at some cars, no test drive either. If they try some salesman jedi-mind trick, I just tell them that they're between me and the door and I'm not fussy about how I get there.
I am not sure what a document fee is but once we make a deal that is it, if someone tries to hang costs on me after the fact I walk. Does that make me an ass. well probably but I a still a virgin ass. I bought a new truck once back in the '80s, and part of the deal on the truck was a brush guard. It was even in writing that it was included in the price. When I went to pay for the truck (cash, I'll never do that again) they added 250 for the brush guard. Which I refused to pay, aside from the fact that it was just a little bit high it was I included in the deal. So after some back and forth the sales manager told me that his salesman was not authorized to make the deal without his signature and that I was going to miss the deal over the price of a brush guard. So as I was headed out the door I informed him that he was going to miss the sale over the price of a brush guard. I guess the sale must have been more important to him than the truck was to me because I ended up with the truck at the agreed upon price brush guard attached.
I am already sour before I walk into a dealer so I tend to be extra vigilant. I leased a car in 06 and was made to pay for an alarm I didn't want. I got scrap value for the 7 year old 60k trade in. Best part was the alarm I was forced to buy never worked properly. The dealer won't replace it and according to the manufacturer I voided my warranty when I put in an after market alarm. I started having all kinds of annoying problems after every visit to the dealer to have the alarm fixed. The last time I have been back was because there were recalls. My car is too old for them to turn a profit on it and they know I won't buy a new one from them so they just fix the recalls and send me out the door. Edit.... I bought the car after the lease was done because I refused to go through the process again.
There actually is a Chevy dealer here in town that I like real well, but I knew him when he was a little kid and his dad owned the place. I did have a salesman get rude with me on the phone a while back, I had no idea that they recorded conversations, he called me a couple of days after and apologized then the owner got on the phone and said, "ben you should have told him that we are friends." then he said, "oh by the way are you bringing donuts next time?" So I said, "is it my turn?" he just laughed and said see you next time you're up this way and we hung up.
Why does anyone set foot on a dealer's lot? Don't you know by now what you are going to get? Don't you know you can get a better car for less money buying privately? You always have the upper hand because you can always walk off the lot without buying anything.
Little old lady we knew walks into a dealer with her mind set on a small compact front-drive car, very basic and ends up being conned into buying the top of the line fully loaded sports car which cost 3 times what she was ready to spend. I suppose it was drinks all round that evening for the clear-conscienced salesman. Many years ago I bought a new pick-up, the salesman tried selling me every useless accessory he could. I told him that I didn't even want the AM radio, and rubber floor covering was fine because if I got the carpet, the hog shit would stick to it and stink the place out. So he tried the "continued service" angle, I told him that I have never paid for an oil and filter change, and I'm not going to start now. That's OK, there,s plenty of people out there who shell out $400 for an oil change to compensate for cheap bastards like me.
The Jalopy Journal
