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Damn this thing is loud.....

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by telecaster_6, Apr 5, 2007.

  1. telecaster_6
    Joined: Dec 8, 2001
    Posts: 484

    telecaster_6
    Member
    from Dorr, Mi

    Finally got the big block in my A sedan broke in. Its running on E85 and i was fighting with it all winter trying to get it to run. Well...after finally finding out that E85 doesnt like to fire below 40 degrees (which is like half the year here in michigan) i waited around for spring and get it going. Cam's all broke in and it runs damn good (after blowing both rad. hoses off during different break in runs). Starts a little hard still, but thats probably due to the tunnel ram and its still not exactly warm here yet. The E85 gives it a interesting smell, kinda like a martini, and it doesnt have the same pop that gasoline does. Was really happy with the temperature, took almost 8 minutes to bring the engine up to 180, and thats with a little tiny, 18x22 two core aluminum rad. Pretty suprising considering its cooling a 460 with 12:1 compression.....
     

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  2. Yo Baby
    Joined: Jul 11, 2004
    Posts: 2,812

    Yo Baby
    Member

    A little gas down their throat for a cold start works real well.LOL
    Were the plugs wrecked too?
    Glad you finally got it wicked up.
     
  3. Why are you bothering with E85?
     
  4. that thing looks scarey fast!!!!! i love it!:cool:
     
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  5. telecaster_6
    Joined: Dec 8, 2001
    Posts: 484

    telecaster_6
    Member
    from Dorr, Mi

    I put a new set of plugs in it just in case.

    Hmmm......i guess you havent heard....

    E85 is 105 octane, and runs much cooler than gasoline. So....rather than run $4.50 a gallon race gas, i just get E85 right from the pump, and i dont have overheating issues.......
     
  6. Aman
    Joined: Dec 28, 2005
    Posts: 2,522

    Aman
    Member
    from Texas

    That's interesting about the 105 octane, I didn't know that but we don't have any in this area. I'd be careful pouring fuel down the carb on a tunnel ram, it may make for an exciting evening at the ER.
     
  7. :DThis thread is useless without an audio/video clip.:D
     
  8. telecaster_6
    Joined: Dec 8, 2001
    Posts: 484

    telecaster_6
    Member
    from Dorr, Mi

    Trust me...i wish i had a clip of it. My buddy was suppose to bring his video camera, but of course he forgot it. Just imagine a healthy big block with zoomies in a big steel building.....
     
  9. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,558

    zman
    Member
    from Garner, NC

    Congrats... yeah the cold starting thing can be a pain, just carry a squirt bottle of gas to help, just like the big alky dragsters...:D

    105 octane to start... but then if you don't get it you never will :eek:
     
  10. Yo Baby
    Joined: Jul 11, 2004
    Posts: 2,812

    Yo Baby
    Member

    Now ya got it runnin',ya gotta bring it to the HAMB Drags!
     
  11. Joe Nicholas
    Joined: Jul 17, 2006
    Posts: 13

    Joe Nicholas
    Member

    Why do E85 when you could make E100 for $1/gal ?? Still fairly experimental but I've got a mini bike runnin on the stuff. Built the still and everything to go with it as my senior project :)

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  12. cleverlever
    Joined: Sep 16, 2005
    Posts: 65

    cleverlever
    Member

    Heres what it might sound like on E85

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wGf90fK-kQ ( turn up volume)

    Heres more info http://cleverlever99.blogspot.com/

    This one starts outside in the winter with point ignition. Why? When you have the throttles real close to the valves you maintain atomization whereas the fuel recongeals if you utilize conventional throttling. Also helps to dump the air fuel mixture in the hot side of the head
     
  13. Joe Nicholas
    Joined: Jul 17, 2006
    Posts: 13

    Joe Nicholas
    Member

    Oh yeah, E100 is about 120 octane but you gotta make preperations with the fuel system in the same way you would with methanol, as Im sure most of you guys know.
     
  14. This is interesting, I didn't know of any advantages to E85. The filling stations around here are all starting to carry E85 but I've been wary of it.
    I notice you have at least one Holley on your really cool A. Tell us what mods you did to the fuel system to accomodate E85; I've heard it's corrosive to older systems designed for pure old gasoline....
    what about carb needle and valve assemblies, jetting richer, what kind of fuel hose, fuel pump mods, etc.????????
    Thanks!!!:)
     
  15. telecaster_6
    Joined: Dec 8, 2001
    Posts: 484

    telecaster_6
    Member
    from Dorr, Mi

    Ok...
    The carb. is a E85 specific built holley 850 DP by AED performance, at the time they were the only ones i found that were building E85 carbs, but i see both edelbrock and quick fuel are offering E85 carbs. I didnt want to mess with cam break-in while trying to guess which jets to run so i had them(AED) build it to suit the engine. You need to end up with around 9:1 a/f ratio to maximize the performance of this stuff, but as far as jet sizes go, i cant really tell you, but i know you need to enlarge both your main, and idle circuits.

    You'll need a fuel system thats about 50% bigger ( at Wide open throttle you'll use about 50% more E85 that you would running just straight gasoline....this is the only big downfall of this stuff). As far as how corrosive it is, i've talked to a lot of different tech. people on this, but from what i've found, its not nearly as corrosive as most people make it out to be. But just to be safe, i used alky compatible composite fuel line from Russel (1/2"). My fuel pump is a billet aluminum 140 gph jegs pump, which i see after the fact is not rated to be compatible with alcohol, but these rating are for compatiblity with methanol, which is much more corrosive than ethanol. Again, this pump has enough flow to feed a 850 horse engine on gasoline,(50% more gas) since my engine makes somewhere around 550-600 horse. This doesnt apply to carburetor CFM though.

    AED claims you dont need to make any timing adjustments, but i have yet to comfirm this as i havent had the car the track or anything. They also claim that a properly tuned engine will make 4-6% more power on E85 as it would on gasoline, but again, i cant comfirm this.
     
  16. Slate
    Joined: Dec 12, 2005
    Posts: 221

    Slate
    Member

    Hey Joe, any writeup on that still?

    I bet that thing is loud as hell.
     
  17. Joe Nicholas
    Joined: Jul 17, 2006
    Posts: 13

    Joe Nicholas
    Member

    I based my still design off of what this guy came up with. http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id8.html . Its a reflux still which means there isn't any need to redistill to get higher proof. I'll get around 95% (190 proof) on the first distillation. The column is 3 inch copper, 1/4" internal coils fed by a garden hose. I just used an old aluminum keg for a boiler but there are better options (55 gallon drum, hot water heater, old propane tanks etc...). Anyone with a bit of fabricating skill could put one together, I did mine in about a week. I have some plans drawn up in AutoCAD and a complete parts sheet if anyone is interested. It's legal too, just get a permit from the TTB and mix it with poison to discourage people from drinking it. Or don't get a permit and become a moonshiner.
     
  18. I did not know that E85 is 105 octane. I have read from several sources that E85 has less energy, ie, fewer BTUs, than 87 octane pump gas, resulting in something like 25% worse fuel economy than with 87 pump gas. Not that we need to especially care about fuel economy with these special vehicles and their limited use. Even for these special vehicles used as daily drivers, the fuel economy doesn't matter. I don't care about the fuel economy, and woukd use E85 in my 50 Merc if I knew E85 wouldn't harm it.

    I suppose this is off topic, but the issue doas spark my curiosity.
     
  19. Joe Nicholas
    Joined: Jul 17, 2006
    Posts: 13

    Joe Nicholas
    Member

    I haven't had the chance to test this personally but I have been told, and read, that using ethanol in a daily driver will give you nearly equal fuel economy to that of gasoline because of its stable nature, no predetonation under load. You would theoretically use less throttle for acceleration. So there is alot more at play here than 9:1 air:fuel for ethanol vs. 14.7:1 for gasoline. I have done alot of research on this and I know its somewhat off topic but I'd also like to hear from some guys with experience on the matter.
     
  20. CQQL33
    Joined: Nov 9, 2005
    Posts: 22

    CQQL33
    Member

    Maybe the following will give you further information. I found it very interesting. I also read that it takes more energy to produce a gallon of Ethanol than is contained in that gallon of Ethanol (?). Looks like the mixture has to be much richer and the fuel efficiency will go down and the cost will go up !!! This ethanol thing doen't sound very good to me..... Octane does not relate power as much as it related to preventing your engine from knocking.......

    Higher octane ratings correlate to higher activation energies. Activation energy is the amount of energy necessary to start a chemical reaction. Since higher octane fuels have higher activation energies, it is less likely that a given compression will cause knocking. (Note that it is the absolute pressure (compression) in the combustion chamber which is important - not the compression ratio. The compression ratio only governs the maximum compression that can be achieved).
    Octane rating has no direct impact on the burn of the air/fuel mixture in the combustion chamber. Other properties of gasoline and engine design account for the manner at which deflagration (or burn) takes place. In other words, the flame speed of a normally iginted mixture is not directly connected to octane rating. Deflagration is the type of combustion that constitues the normal burn. Detonation is a different type of combustion and this is to be avoided in spark ignited gasoline engines. Octane rating is a measure of detonation resistance, not deflagration characteristics.
    It might seem odd that fuels with higher octane ratings explode less easily, yet are popularly thought of as more powerful. The misunderstanding is caused by confusing the ability of the fuel to resist compression detonation as opposed to the ability of the fuel to burn (combustion). However, premium grades of petrol often contain more energy per litre due to the composition of the fuel as well as increased octane.
    A simple explanation is that carbon-carbon bonds contain more energy than carbon-hydrogen bonds. Hence a fuel with a greater number of carbon bonds will carry more energy regardless of the octane rating. A premium motor fuel will often be formulated to have both higher octane as well as more energy. A counter example to this rule is that ethanol blend fuels have a higher octane rating, but carry a lower energy content on a volume basis (per litre or per gallon). The reason for this is that ethanol is a partially oxidized hydrocarbon which can be seen by noting the presence of oxygen in the chemical formula: C<SUB>2</SUB>H<SUB>5</SUB>OH. Note the substitution of the OH hydroxyl radical for a H hydrogen which transforms the gas ethane (C<SUB>2</SUB>H<SUB>6</SUB>) into ethanol. Note that to a certain extent a fuel with a higher carbon ratio will be more dense than a fuel with a lower carbon ratio. Thus it is possible to formulate high octane fuels that carry less energy per liter than lower octane fuels. This is certainly true of ethanol blend fuels (gasohol), however fuels with no ethanol and indeed no oxygen are also possible.
    In the case of alcohol fuels, like Methanol and Ethanol, since they are partially oxidized fuels they need to be run at much richer mixtures than gasoline. As a consequence the total amount of fuel burned per cycle counter balances the lower energy per unit volume, and the net energy released per cycle is higher. If gasoline is run at its preferred max power air fuel mixture of 12.5:1, it will release approximately 19,000 BTU of energy, where ethanol run at its preferred max power mixture of 6.5:1 will liberate approximately 24,400 BTU and Methanol at a 4.5:1 AFR liberates about 27,650 BTU .
     
  21. dochorsepower
    Joined: Aug 4, 2006
    Posts: 67

    dochorsepower
    Member

    The scent,. . . Tanqueray or Bombay?
     
  22. Lobucrod
    Joined: Mar 22, 2006
    Posts: 4,089

    Lobucrod
    Alliance Vendor
    from Texas

    yeah, what he said
     
  23. CQQL33
    Joined: Nov 9, 2005
    Posts: 22

    CQQL33
    Member

    One more thing, here is an informative chart for consideration....

    TABLE 1 <TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>Fuel</TD><TD>Engine Air Flow (cfm)</TD><TD>lbs of air (lbs)</TD><TD>A/F Ratio</TD><TD>Pounds of Fuel (lbs)</TD><TD>Energy Content of Fuel (BTU/lb)</TD><TD>Total Thermal Energy (BTU)</TD></TR><TR><TD>Gasoline</TD><TD>567.53</TD><TD>42.64</TD><TD>12.8:1</TD><TD>2.89</TD><TD>18,500</TD><TD>53,176</TD></TR><TR><TD>Methanol</TD><TD>567.53</TD><TD>42.64</TD><TD>6.0:1</TD><TD>7.11</TD><TD>9,500</TD><TD>67,545</TD></TR><TR><TD>Nitromethane</TD><TD>567.53</TD><TD>42.64</TD><TD>1.7:1</TD><TD>25.08</TD><TD>5,000</TD><TD>125,412
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    Summary - As you can see from table 1 above the clear winner is nitromethane. But that doesn't mean to go out and pour nitromethane in your car and see how it runs, if you do your engine will surely blow up. Nitromethane is very expensive and dangerous to handle. The interesting alternative to gasoline is Methanol. Methanol will make more power, typically around 20% more power than a similar engine running gasoline. Some things to consider in running methanol is your fuel system will have to be completely changed / upgraded. Based on the table above the fuel system will have to flow approximately 2.5 times as much as the gasoline engine.


    "Gasoline is for washing parts, alcohol is for drinking and nitro is for racing."
     
  24. Joe Nicholas
    Joined: Jul 17, 2006
    Posts: 13

    Joe Nicholas
    Member

    I haven't seen those air fuel mixture numbers before. Always heard that gasoline is 14.7:1 stoichiometric and ethanol 9:1. Are we talking about something different with max power AFR? Still though, notice that you are getting more energy output (BTU) for the max power AFR of ethanol as opposed to gasoline. Octane doesn't relate directly to energy content of a fuel but it seems that higher compression relates to greater power (right?) and you can run higher compression with a higher octane fuel (alcohol) just as Telecaster is doing. As far as energy input vs. energy output, there are arguments on both sides but I can tell you almost for certain that corn is one of the most inefficient feedstocks to make ethanol from. Personally the efficiency isn't a huge issue, I just like the fact that I can produce it myself... Telecaster keep us updated on how this thing likes the E85.
     
  25. Nick32vic
    Joined: Jul 17, 2003
    Posts: 3,016

    Nick32vic
    Member

    You and Dustin should haul it down to the HAMB drags in august!
     
  26. cool33,

    That was very informative. Thanks!
     
  27. cool 33,

    In your latest post, number 23 on this thread, you had a table showing the properties of gasoline, methanol, and nitromethane.
    I was wondering if you would please provide the corresponding numbers for ethanol, if you have them. Thanks very much.
     
  28. telecaster_6
    Joined: Dec 8, 2001
    Posts: 484

    telecaster_6
    Member
    from Dorr, Mi

    As long as i'm not out of country working, i'll make sure i'm back for that weekend, i'd really like to take it out to the drags.... Dustin needs to get his done so we have something to haul it with :)
     
  29. telecaster_6
    Joined: Dec 8, 2001
    Posts: 484

    telecaster_6
    Member
    from Dorr, Mi

    Just to make it clear....You won't get better mileage, or even equivelant mileage with E85, it doesnt contain as much energy per volume that gasoline does, hense the neccessity to use 50% more at WOT. I use it strictly because my engine has 12:1 compression, and with a 460's combustion chamber design, there's no other choice but race fuel, which i dont feel like paying for, or carrying with me. Even though the car isnt really a street friendly car, i do intend on driving it as much as possible, or untill the cops tell me i cant anymore, so i need a fuel i can buy at the pump. Plus it runs cooler...this shit is like the best of both worlds, and the government is pushing for more and more pumps. There's even a push to start using it in different racing divisions. Time will tell i guess, i'll keep you guys posted.
     
  30. LoBrow
    Joined: Mar 8, 2005
    Posts: 619

    LoBrow
    Member
    from MI

    HA! Just borrow Ma and Pa's Winnebago....But I say you just drive it down!!! :D I would for sure be up for going...with or without your car in tow...I'd split gas.
     

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