Cutting and Welding a Forged Steel Front Axle, Permitted or Not?

I've been challenged about cutting and welding a '59 forged steel front Ford F100 truck axle to narrow it to fit under my '55 Chevy blown Olds powered "gasser" style project.

Apparently I asked too many questions about the cancellation of the Summit Series at our local drag strip of the "Board", and have come under increased "scrutiny". The "Board" has decided that my cutting and narrowing of this axle to get it to fit under my car is not an acceptably safe practice and that my car should be banned from the track, due to possible front axle failures. It's become very political, for reasons I won't go into, but I feel what I have done is completely safe and can be defended.

Think about the forged crankshafts that are routinely welded up and machined and run perfectly safe.

Forged high carbon steel is weldable. I learned that when in high school in the 50's in an agricultural area, which was subsequently confirmed in the early 60's in a highly rated agricultural college (University of California at Davis), where I worked my way through to an Agricultural Engineering degree working on various Ag Machinery projects in the Ag Engineering shop on campus.

The details on my cutting and narrowing of this axle is shown here on my website. If any of you have knowledge of proper welding techniques for modifications of this type, I would appreciate your review of my work and your comments on the safety and performance potential of the finished product.

Bear in mind that I am a licensed PE, in the Agricultural Engineering discipline, where modifications of this sort are common and accepted practice. My experience in this area includes both supervision of others doing this work and the performance of this type of work myself over the last 45 years in the Hawaiian Sugar and Pineapple industries.

Here's the link to the discussed web page.

Aloha,
Willy

 

I would go find myself a place that is certified to do crane repairs. Find out where they have their test welds X-ray certified. Have your axle X-rayed and take the
X-ray image along with the pics of the proceedure performed to who ever there does welding certification. Then get in touch with the NHRA Tech office and find out what you would have to do to have this modification approved to run at a NHRA sanctioned track.
Then with every thing up to snuff, go back to the "board" and have them either justify their decision or openly admit to political Tom Foolery.
Piss me off and I'll come back to see you loaded for bear.

 

Regarding the quote from your post that I posted below ... how did the "tech" people even find out if you can't see it? It appears as thought the track officials have made up their minds that it is unsafe, and no amount of arguing or producing an X-ray report is going to help. Sounds like you might have pissed in someones Corn Flakes and they didn't like the taste. It seems the only way to race at this track will be to swap in a new (correct width/without modifications) axle. One final thought ... their decision might not have anything to do with your previous personality conflict ... IF you were to crash and die at the track because the axle failed, and your wife shows up (in court) and claims the track officials knew about the modification and OK'ed it ... wonder how happy their insurance company would be?

You wanna race at their track? Then you need to make it safe in the eyes of the tech inspectors regardless of what your opinion or anyone else's opinion of the modification is.



Bet ya can't spot the weld area, it has blended in nicely with the original surface.

 

I have "spies in high places", and I was told that after I "offended" an official with a particularly innocent comment (or so I thought), they intentionally went looking for something that they could use to keep me off that track. Until that happened it was all "A-OK"....

Unfortunately I had been posting my project and the process was open for all to see. Gave them an easy target to find something and point to it....

Yup, may have to buy a new axle and replace mine. Mine was a gift, a freebie, it's solid, and working with that 1959 Ford forged steel was like working with butter. You just don't see steel like that anymore. but if that's what I have to do, I'll do it.

 

Best of luck, but it sounds like you're in for a front axle swap. I notice you are in Hawaii, can't be many local tracks to choose from, best make them happy I guess.

 

About 90 % of the 1960's through the 1980's West Coast Super Modifieds used the earlier 1949 through 1956 Ford F1 and F100 front axles which were narrowed the same as you did. The only difference was the axles were plated over the welded area. It appears you are using parallel front springs, this would reduce the amount of stress at the center of the axle a huge amount. Good Luck

 

I agree. Sometimes if you wanna play, you gotta kiss a little a$$ or go home.

 

Yup, I'm looking for a replacement axle now. The setup I have is near perfect, handling, turning radius, steering, so it's setup for the 4" dropped axle, and a straight axle just would put the nose way high, or require severe mods to the front end setup I have now. Anyone know where I can get an NHRA acceptable axle that would fit my specs? 50" kp to kp, 28-3/4" spring pad width, 59 ford spindles and kingpins.

 

I gues it would be okay to run a tube axle
with kingpin bosses welded on ......in an area
that get much more load than the center
where you welded.......you must bee a major
pain in the but on someone
Does the "board"consist of teenage girls????

 

As a fellow engineer, and in my humble opinion, the only thing your track officials need is your signed and dated compliance letter. As previously noted, how do they justify other axles that have the ends welded on?
As we find, all too often, there is some pinhead in a power position that will decide your/our fate when they have absoultely no knowledge or experience in that (or often, any) scientific field of endeavour.
Every day there is a welded structural steel frame going up somewhere that will later become a 10, or 50, story apartment or office building and these idiots have a problem welding an axle in the style and location such as yours. God save us all, the inmates truly are running the aslyum.

.

 

&, you may find it expedient, to take that fellows' place on the "board".

I'm sure he's done (or is doing) something that can be used for removal.

Sounds like it's time for someone w/common sense & experience in a field of modification to join & benefit the board. Not to mention the racers...

Marcus...

 

I think ( putting politics aside ) if the axle was fish plated front and back it should be stronger than original baring the area along the welds. I am just an old machinist with just enough knowledge to get me in trouble. Jim.T.

 

Just for future use, if I had something I think is suspect or may be questioned, I'd try not to make an internet thread about it, nor would I point it out to the inspector I just pissed off. Just a little FYI...

 

Hey Wille I was sorry to read this.I know back in the day they did exactly what you did on AWB cars . The axle in my Dodge was made in the ship yard on Oahu the KP bosses are welded on.However I think you are going to have to play their game. I know of a similar situation over here.

 

As a retired ol' pipe welder, I can agree with SOME of the above,--But as you guys know, a butt welded joint done correctly, IS STRONGER than the PARENT metal.
All this talk about using "plates" is BS,----Unless the weld is SUSPECT!

 

Here's an update on where this is going, I had googled "dropped axles" and this site (LINK), among others, had shown up. With my narrowed axle it fits my leaf spring location perfectly, When the axle was stock width (53.5") it was too wide at the spring perches, as my leaf springs are mounted right under the frame rails. With the axle narrowed the spring perches are at 28-3/4" wide, that's what I need to find in an unmodified axle, as I don't want to have to rebuild that whole spring mounting system.

This pix is with the axle narrowed, 5 deg caster, what I eventually went with:


Although I have some 5" wide 15" steelies to run at the track, I like these 8" rims with some offset to run on the street, and they fit perfectly just under the fender rim with this axle. So I need to find a 50" wide, kp to kp, plus or minus slightly is ok, to run, that would fit my leaf spring spacing. Leafs are 2" wide.

Take a look at this pix from the dropped axle website (above), shows my axle, in stock form at top, and the other two are stretched additional inches to get more drop, how did they "safely" do that? How would that modification be any more safe then mine?


The guy who built the "Shakey Puddin" axle is Jim Tinsmith, of "Tinny's Hot Rods", I have a contact in to him to ask about welding up a dropped axle to fit my car, no answer yet. I've been told that chrome moley, properly tig welded and heat treated, would be acceptable for our track.

The local "professor" of welding, the welding tech instructor at our local community college, suggested a bolt on truss I could put on the axle. We discussed how to attach it, and discarded the idea of welding on the truss. Bolting it on would be an acceptable method of attaching it. The idea is to provide a solid vertical upward support at the middle of the axle.

I'm drawing it up now. Pair of 1/4" plates sandwiched on the axle in three locations, up next to each leaf spring, and in the middle. 4 ea. 1/2" grade 8 bolts, two above and two below the axle at each location, located tight against the top and bottom of the axle, pinning the plates tightly against the axle. The side plates to have an additional 2" upward above the bolts at the sides, and downward at the middle. Four half inch steel rods running diagonally, two on each side, one in front, one in back of the axle, running from the top of the side plates to the bottom of the middle plate.

Lift the frame up to take all load off the axle, place the truss on and bolt it down solid. When put back on the ground, the vertical downward forces at the middle of the axle will be picked up by these rods and transferred to the plates next to the leaf springs. A truss of this nature will transfer a huge amount of load from the middle of the axle directly to the leaf springs.

It probably would work even better if I could modify the spring mounts themselves to take the load transfer from the truss, but we think this arrangement with bolt on plates would work fine, and could be fabricated under supervision of a certified welder, or maybe even done by the certified welder himself.

Now whether the tech inspector at NHRA would accept it or not is another question!
I'm going to draw it up and submit it to the NHRA tech and see what happens.

Man, sometimes life gets real interesting just when you least expect it!!!
Willy

 

Welding forged steel is entirley possible. The trick is to know what type of steel was used and then create a weld procedure that will allow the steel to retain as many of it's original properties as possible.

I would suggest a pre-heat and post heat treatment in order to minimize losing the original heat treat.

Knowing the alloy and the heat treat they did the first time I would have no problem cutting and welding an axle.

You will need the appropriate filler metal, something that closely matches the original alloy.

Also, having the proper documentation to back up what you did will go a long way at the track.

Also a very good welder will be helpful and I mean a welding person.

 

It's a good thing that no one has a narrowed rear axle at that track. You should put his name up, with his quote so we can all see how smart he is.

 

....This is "local" politics.... sorry my friend, you lose. spent 6 years, the wrong color (haole) over there.... Good luck.

 

Absolutely correct. (never seen a chrommoly airframe with 'gloves' or fishplate doublers)

 

Yup, Imma Howlee Thru n Thru, so yup, U do know what I mean!!!
Willeeeee

 

Lincoln Electric Management ( I had friends ) welded, heat treated and x rayed a forged steering arm on my off road racer and it BROKE the first time out.

 

Well that's unfortunate, I wish I could have been there to inspect the broken part and try to determine exactly why it broke, it really shouldn't have, something is not right there....
Willy

 

I'm not getting anywhere with the local NHRA on accepting my narrowed and welded front axle. So, I've located a suitable replacement! Sid's Axles in Guthrie, OK has all kinds of axles, ford, chevy, etc, etc, and can supply me with a '48 - '52 ford F1 front axle that matches up exactly to my 29" leaf spring spacing. The kingpin spacing is about 3/4" wider than my narrowed axle is, so the wheels will sit 3/8" further out on each side, not a problem at all!

The only other thing Sid will do before shipping the axle to me, is to widen the U-bolt holes 1/8" on each side of the leafs, as my leafs are 2" wide and the stock holes are for 1-3/4" wide leafs, that's easy and is not a problem. The other is that the spindle/kingpins I have are 0.859" and this axle has 0.8125" kingpins, but not a problem to ream out the knuckles to take the 0.0465" larger kingpins. And the knuckle inclination needs to be adjusted to the '59 4 degrees setup, again not a problem. Sid's will do that for me, sand blast the axle and ship it to me. I'll paint it and install it with all my gear on it, and there is plenty of room on my drag link (cross steer) and tie rod to take up that additional width at the kingpins.

Sounds like an acceptable solution for the NHRA to me!
Aloha,
Willy

http://www.droppedaxles.com/FORD_AXLES.html

 

Once something becomes "political".... 'nuff said,........

4TTRUK

 

why tell them just do it...........

 

You are mixing two things here racing and politics. Apparently the politics are against you and I don't see how you win this one. lets assume you win this battle, they still hate you and find another objection. Also if they let you even if yours is safe the next guy is gonna want his exception. I remember a roundy round guy who got a certified welder to state his pieces of cow stancions were adequate to use in a roll cage. We never found out because the tech guys found something new each week to keep him from racing.

 

Simple solution!

Magnaflux it for cracks, then get it professionally heat treated.

or if you don't want to Asslick the local politics ,buy a custom axle. It would be cheaper

 

I went ahead and bought the unmodified '52 F1 axle. It will be a bolt-in with no structural mods. The heat at the track shifted to others during the races last weekend, I just went to watch and stayed in the background. There was an NHRA visiting official there from LA, who watched this, and went off shaking his head! When I get the axle here and installed, will just go down and quietly check in, with the modified axle available to show it was truly swapped out and the receipt in hand. Should not be a problem really. Others seem to be taking heat now, so think I am ok, after all I "listened" to them and changed the axle....

Yeah, like an idiot I told them I had cut and welded it, never should have said a word about that....

 

I realize you have already gone the new axle route, but I thought I'd comment anyway.

Comparing an I beam axle to an I Beam that holds a building up is apples and oranges. The I beam in your apartment just sits there and takes a static load, but the axle in a car has some twisting function to it by nature of the suspension design. And I don't claim to know the answer here, but it seems to me that when you cut and weld an I Beam axle you are changing the structure of it at the weld and I would worry about it fatiguing either at or next to the weld as time goes on with repeated twisting cycles. It may not be a problem but I would sure like to know about the effects of long term before running something like that myself. The twisting is also probably quite minimal in a parallel leaf set up so it is probably moot.
As for But welds being stronger than the root metal, so much depends on the quality of the weld, the degree of chamfer and the size of the fillet. Especially on something as thick as an I beam axle (as versus some thin wall tubing). I know the FAA does not allow for butt welds for a repair in a tubular part of aircraft - it must be sleeved (inner or outer) and welded.