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History Custom Car builder Spotlight: AYALA BROTHERS

Discussion in 'Traditional Customs' started by Rikster, Mar 24, 2005.

  1. pimpin paint
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 4,940

    pimpin paint
    Member
    from so cal

    Hummmmmmmmmmm!

    Three different license plates on the same vehicle in a three year period?

    Different facebars

    Gill's wife I.d's the photo as Bob Gillum's Brown/Bronze coupe who's Bob Gillum, and did he in fact own a brown/bronze coupe?

    A 9-10 year time period between Gil's build date and Memo buying Gil's coupe, a coupe?

    No brown/bronze lacquer under the finish of the vehicle bought in 1959?

    All of the verisimilitude aside, that's a great lookin kustom what/whoever's it is!

    Dammit, and now they tell me Colombo's been dead two years:D
     
  2. I am not sure the cowl vent really proves much because Memo didn't mention there was any other color under there so if we are going by the assumption that they wouldnt have taken all the paint off before filling the vent then there should have been factory paint in there if it was a different car. If Memo thought there might be two cars I would think he would have mentioned it had he seen any other paint in the vent. So whether or not it was one or two cars it seems likely that the paint was removed pretty thoroughly in the vent area.

    Sent from my DROID device using the TJJ mobile app
     
  3. ragtopking
    Joined: May 8, 2008
    Posts: 7

    ragtopking
    Member

    Rik,

    When I spoke with Memo, he mentioned the zebra pattern head liner and that the car also had quad lights, it had a 46 title. I'm pretty sure Memo would have a better account of this since he owned the car and his facts are first hands and not something read from a book. For years people have referred to this car as a 42, but the car Memo bought from Gil was a 46. Even you have referred to this car in the past as a 42. I strongly believe Jeff has bought up a very good point, and I would have to agree with him that there appears to be 2 different similar cars. Also Memo sold the 46 back in the early 60's to someone in southern California. It was placed for sale in the local paper. Memo did a sketch for Teen Angel back in the day. Why don't you post up that sketch Rik..
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  4. Tomkat39
    Joined: Mar 14, 2010
    Posts: 91

    Tomkat39
    Member

    Update 32 roadster : It has a merc ? motor put in it and is on the road and at a few cruises in Il. It was also at Iron Invasion in Woodstock Il.
    I don't think the owner is on here much.
    So hope he doesn't mind if I give small update.
    Also kept the way it was built by Ayala.
     
  5. HELLMET
    Joined: Apr 21, 2001
    Posts: 1,606

    HELLMET
    Member

    man that dark colored car is straight. most cars back then the body work them was soso. that cars nice. to me it looks like same car i studied the rear window on each pic pretty good.
     
  6. HELLMET
    Joined: Apr 21, 2001
    Posts: 1,606

    HELLMET
    Member

    i just got my jack stewart book. awsome. the alaya brothers rule. makes me want to do a 42-46 ford custom and have my buddy kieth dean give it a wack. i miss having a custom. my roadster would look good being towed behind it going to el mirage. just saying.
     
  7. Wow.. im finally on a computer screen instead of my phone screen and I think the shapes of the windows are even more obvious and I aint talkin no fisheye effects.Look around the areas of the B pillar and just look at the radias' on the Emory photos compared to any side view shot of Gils.Doesn't matter if it is out on the lakebed or the indoor show.The radius' are different and it is easy to see that in the photos.Also look at the side view comparisons and notice the pictures that are thought to be Gils (darker paint) are almost a straight line from the A pillar to the B pillar.Also the front of the rear quarter window(closest to the B pillar) looks very round to me in the Emory pictures.

    Maybe Gil reworked the window openings when he painted the bronze car ? If someone was going to cover a vent ,would they really take the time to strip any trace of bronze paint? If so ...why would they go thru the trouble? Memo said he found NO trace of that color anywhere on the car he bought from Gil.

    It's getting pretty interesting on Olympic Blvd on this fine New Years Day . :)
     
  8. I thought the same about the pictures Jeff but after Rik mentioned the distortion in the picture I am not sure. Look At how curved the wall and what I assume is a tree or post are in the top left of the picture there is some major distortion going on there. Not saying there were not two cars but that picture is not a good one to do a comparison with.

    Rik you said you can tell the color of the car by the tones in the photos do any of the pictures of the car at the dry lakes look like the lighter color? I would think that it would most likely be Gils car if it was at the races.

    Posted from the TJJ App for iPhone & iPad
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  9. ragtopking
    Joined: May 8, 2008
    Posts: 7

    ragtopking
    Member

    This is the sketch and reference to Gil's car Memo did for Teen Angel magazine many many years ago, he mentions that is was in fact a 46... not 42. The sketch also shows what the car looked like when it was sold.
     

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    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  10. Rikster
    Joined: Dec 10, 2004
    Posts: 5,781

    Rikster
    Member

    Zeke,

    Here is the sketch you are referring to.

    [​IMG]



    And this is what Memo told me about the Zebra headliner.

    "i went to your ayalas site and looked where it shows the inside of the car same i style it had when i got it. execpt no zebra headliner."

    The Zebra headliner "story" comes from the Trend books #101 Custom Cars booklet. In here there is a photo showing an interior of an Ayala built 1942-46 Ford coupe. Partly inset into this photo is another photo showing an unchopped 1940 Ford coupe with an Zebra interior.
    I have had this scan on my site for a long time, and Memo and many others got confused by this. Although Memo repeatedly said he could not remember the Zebra headliner... and right he was. There never was a zebra headliner in the car!
    The two photos have nothing in common with each other... they just happened to be on the same page of the book. Thats all.
    So the Zebra headliner mystery is solved!


    Photo that was shown on my website.
    [​IMG]



    And a scan of the complete page.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  11. ragtopking
    Joined: May 8, 2008
    Posts: 7

    ragtopking
    Member

    Rik when I interviewed him he brought up the headliner being Zebra. It was not something I had mentioned. He was describing the condition of the car to me as he got it. I don't think Memo has seen that Annual. There is nothing in books stating it was a 46, yet the car was a titled 46, not 42, there is nothing in books stating it had quad lights, yet, when Memo purchased the car I had quad lights. Another mystery solved??? I don't think so.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  12. Rikster
    Joined: Dec 10, 2004
    Posts: 5,781

    Rikster
    Member

    Jeff,
    I know what you see... I also can see that.
    But as I mentioned before you would need two identical photos taken from the same spot to tell this difference for sure. The radius you mention appears to be in the Gary Emory supplied photo, but in fact all the window openings look to be more rounded in that photo.
    Even the front of the side window opening - at the A-pillar - in that photo appears to have a different radius than the dark colored car. I think its highly unlikely that was done with body work. I think its an optical illusion caused by the fish eye effect, the color of the car, and the most caused by the lighting differences. But I could be wrong.

    Still I'm not saying there are not two nearly identical coupes done by the Ayala's... but these photos do not proof it to me.

    Another thing is that why would Gil have put an older grille (1942) in his 1946 Ford. Especailly back then it was important to make your car look newer, not older.
    I know there are exceptions to this, like the 1937 DeSoto bumpers, but for a grille and a heavily reworked front to make this work?
    But then, it could perhaps have been a 1942 model sold early in 1946 as a 1946 Ford.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  13. Rikster
    Joined: Dec 10, 2004
    Posts: 5,781

    Rikster
    Member

    Been looking at the photos from the 42-46 Ford coupes some more and decided to put them in one photo to compare them a bit better.

    The photos that I used are
    - (A) The one photo of the car "identified" by Gil Ayala's wife as the Bob Gillum 1947 Ford. (this is a color photo but I turned it into a black and white photo and I flipped if to make them fit the rest of the photos in this composition a bit better.
    - (B) The side view from the Gary Emory Collection
    - (C) The side view of the dark colored (most likely dark blue) photo taken at the 1952 Hot Rod and Motor Sports Show .

    The distances from the camera to the car and even the position towards the car are different on all three photos. So its as good as impossible to tell if these are the same car or two or three different cars based on these images. But lets use them anyway.


    Jeff mentioned the rounded corners on the window opening in photo B, and especially the straight A to B line on the top of the window opening in photo C.
    It also appears to me that this straight top line of the side window opening (from the a to b-pillar is evident in Photo A which is "identified" as a 1947 Ford owned by Bob Gillum.
    So based on that can we then identify the Ford in Photo A and Photo C are the same car. And that the car in Photo C is Bob Gillum's 1947 Ford painted a dark color and not Gil Ayala's 1942-46 Ford?
    And did Memo Ortega end up with Bob's 1947 Ford instead of Gil's 1942-46 Ford?

    [​IMG]


    Personally I think that the three photos shown here are of the same car. And the differences in shapes are caused by different camera's locations and/or distortion from the camera or copy method.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  14. Rik I think you forgot one.
    uploadfromtaptalk1357141812264.jpg

    Sent from my DROID device using the TJJ mobile app
     
  15. Rikster
    Joined: Dec 10, 2004
    Posts: 5,781

    Rikster
    Member

    No... same as "B"
     
  16. banditomerc
    Joined: Dec 18, 2005
    Posts: 2,201

    banditomerc
    Member

    In the many conversations I had with Memo when doing my research for the Ayala tribute I built,he said"no zebra headliner".and as mentioned in this thread,no bronze color on car at all when he stripped it down to metal when he repainted the car.Memo also said that the car he bought from Gil had the cowl vent welded shut.He remembers how warm the interior would get in the summer,the vent handle assembly was still present in the car.In comparing the photos,notice the lower car,that we know in fact to be Gils,has a dunked antenna,while the others dont.I believe the two top pictures are the same car...is it an early rendition of the car in the third picture.....i would say not...my 2 cents..
     
  17. Well I know its the same car but it is a different look at the window openings.We know we are looking at different angled pictures here.
     
  18. Rikster
    Joined: Dec 10, 2004
    Posts: 5,781

    Rikster
    Member

    David, thanks for your input....
    As for photo A not having an antenna showing is because the photo is flipped. So the fender you see is the passenger side fender. But it could very well be this version of this car does not have an antenna anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  19. Rikster
    Joined: Dec 10, 2004
    Posts: 5,781

    Rikster
    Member

    Okay... and what kind of info does this photo give you more than the photo B I choose?
     
  20. It doesn't give any life changing info,it's just a different angle to look at the windows shape and heighth.A different picture is not going to have the same optical illusions as another picture.This seems to be getting a little technical although I do like how Rik placed the pics on top of eachother like that.The facts are facts and there is no disputing...... These pictures do NOT prove anything only raise questions.
    We can't dispute the very unusual license plate change from one year to another when the car didn't change owners.We can't change the fact that Memo did not find any trace of the bronze color when he started working on Gils old car.Especially when he said he got to the once concealed vent.

    Like I said before.......getting interesting on Olympic blvd. :)
     
  21. Rikster
    Joined: Dec 10, 2004
    Posts: 5,781

    Rikster
    Member

    Were does the info come from that states there are two cars that are similar styled... only from the TRJ article?
     
  22. Not sure where the idea started.
     
  23. I still wonder if the two yellow license plates were due to the fact that Gil had his issues with the law around that time and had his plates pulled. He went to Jail in 1950 it seems he could have had the '49 plate up until he got arrested and then had to get a new plate when he got out. Obviously pure speculation but maybe a possibility.
     
  24. Talked to a couple of oldtimers today and they said that even after getting in trouble you would still keep the same plates.The plate thing still kind of trips me out.I just don't really understand that.
     
  25. 40 & 61 Fords
    Joined: May 17, 2006
    Posts: 2,000

    40 & 61 Fords
    Member

    Maybe it's a simple case of switch the plates on the similar looking cars and pay only one registration fee?

    Too me, it looks like theres a cowl vent on the "A" car and not on the "C" car. Also, the tail lights look to extend further back on the "C" car than the "A" car, but that could be another photo angle trick.
     
  26. Do you know if they impounded cars or anything? I wonder if maybe he had someone else register it to keep it out of the hands of the authorities while he was in jail? The two yellow plates is strange.

    I assume given the plates that the bronze car is believed to have been built first. Given that the one thing I do find inconceivable is that having built the Bronze car for someone else Gil would build an almost exact replica for himself. Doesn't seem like a very good business move if nothing else. I certainly wouldn't be very impressed if the owner of one of the big custom shops of the time didn't have enough imagination to change things up on his own car and basically just build a clone with different bumpers of a customers car.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  27. The cowl vent was filled on the "c" car it was believed that this was done when the car was repainted but now maybe it wasn't repainted...:confused:
     
  28. HELLMET
    Joined: Apr 21, 2001
    Posts: 1,606

    HELLMET
    Member

    thats the same car to me. but im no one. :)
     
  29. Does anyone have any info on the guys standing in front of these cars like who they might be ? I wonder if Gils wife recognized that bronze car or maybe she recognized the man standing next to the car.
    Im not sure if this car or cars were that big of a deal at the time.Yesterday I asked 2 old legends that are in their 80s about this or these cars and neither one of em remembered.They sure did remember Gils 40 though.Both of them talked about how great that car was.They were both in the area during the timeline we are talkin about.
     
  30. Jeff I think Pimpin might have been right about the picture from Gary Emory that it might be Neil Emory. Compare the guy to this photo of Neil from Rik's site and it could very well be him.
     

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