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Technical Cruise o matic FX front clutch question

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by petbir, Sep 13, 2014.

  1. petbir
    Joined: Jul 15, 2014
    Posts: 32

    petbir

    Hi!
    I'm in the middle of rebuilding my small case cruise o matic and i have encountered a problem when installing the new clutch plates in the front clutch cylinder.
    I removed 4 composition plates (badly worn) and 3 steel plates. In my rebuild kit i recieved 4 each of the plates and the new composition plates are really thick, so i can just fit 3 composition and 2 steel plates in the front clutch cylinder. Does this matters?
    Thank you / Petter
     
  2. 270dodge
    Joined: Feb 11, 2012
    Posts: 742

    270dodge
    Member
    from Ohio

    OK then I haven't seen your bobber go down yet so now you've got a bite. I'll start by saying that I have never been inside a Ford tranny. I have been in many others and they are all the same basic design. The number of clutch plates determines the amount of torque that the clutch pack can handle. More is better. How close are to getting the 4 friction- 3 steel combo in it? There are different thicknesses of snap rings to adjust the clutch pack clearance. Might be that you have a thick snap ring and need a thin one. I used to take my pressure plates to a machine shop and have them thinned to accept one more plate to strengthen the clutch. Always make Shure that you have the proper clearance and soak the frictions in tranny fluid for at least 1/2 hour before assembly. Use Vaseline for assembly lube.
     
  3. just like 270dodge never modified cruise-o-matic. i've machined the piston to install extra clutch removed the waved steel and some trans have selective pressure plate or snap rings but make sure you have enough clearance
     
  4. justpassinthru
    Joined: Jul 23, 2010
    Posts: 524

    justpassinthru
    Member

    There should be two different thickness frictions. Thick ones go in the direct drum and the thin in the forward drum.
    Bill
     
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  5. petbir
    Joined: Jul 15, 2014
    Posts: 32

    petbir

    Could be i switched them then! The friction plates i removed from the forward drum missed one cog and so did the new thick ones. But on the other hand the thinner ones fit perfectly in the direct drum.
    I'll try switching them. Thank you!
     
  6. petbir
    Joined: Jul 15, 2014
    Posts: 32

    petbir

    I'ts not close at all. One more friction plate seats above the hub.
    Whats my bobber? :)
     
  7. 270dodge
    Joined: Feb 11, 2012
    Posts: 742

    270dodge
    Member
    from Ohio

    Fishing terminology. A float used to suspend the bait at a certain depth. When a fish bites the bobber goes under. I waited for someone with more knowledge( like justpassinthru) . Sometimes when the ball begins to roll others will better info. I like the 2 thickness idea. Keep us posted.
     
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  8. rotorwrench
    Joined: Apr 21, 2006
    Posts: 633

    rotorwrench
    Member

    There are a few rebuilders and/or parts sources that specialize in the early Ford/Borg WarnerX-series transmissions. There aren't very many sources of parts for the real early ones back to 1951 and not a lot of them for the later small, medium, and large case X series transmissions. All of these transmission evolved from the early Ford-O-Matic/Merc-O-Matic designs. I personally am more familiar with the medium case models for the Thunderbirds but know them well enough to know they all have there quirks. If you can find a good supplier of parts, I would give them a call or e-mail. Charlie Transmission's site has a parts list that includes several different thickness clutch plates depending on the model of the unit. There are a lot of differences over the years in these units. You really need to seek out someone with more knowledge on them or at least the parts available for them.
     
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  9. petbir
    Joined: Jul 15, 2014
    Posts: 32

    petbir

    Do you have a link to charlies? When i google it I get a lot of different hits.

    Tried the thinner friction plates in the front clutch today but i still could only fit 3 friction and one extra steel plate in there, so I ended up with a steel plate on top. In all exploded views there is a friction plate in the bottom and one at the top, just like the ones I removed. Feels like i dont have the right friction plates since i removed 4 and can only fit 3. The overhaul kit is supposed to fit -51-72 models and i have a -64.
     
  10. justpassinthru
    Joined: Jul 23, 2010
    Posts: 524

    justpassinthru
    Member

    The forward clutch stack starts with a pressure plate in the bottom of the drum, then a friction then a steel etc, ending with a friction at the top, then the input shaft.

    In early cast iron Ford transmissions the friction clutches would have been bronze and the direct clutch steel plates were beveled.

    The replacement steels will be flat for both drums and the beveled are no longer available.

    Later model cast iron transmissions had a wavy plate in the bottom of the direct drum between the piston and first flat steel plate.

    The replacement steel clutches for both drums are the same thickness. The frictions are thinner for the forward and thicker for the direct. Off hand I cant tell you what the thickness of the steels and frictions are till I go to work tomorow.

    What type of clutches were in the unit to begin with?

    There are oversized steel clutches and different thickness friction clutches available.

    In small, med, and large case Cruiseomatics, I will generally try to refinish and reuse the beveled direct steels if possible, if not I will use a later wavy plate in the direct drum and then play with the clearance in the clutchpack.
    Bill
     
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  11. justpassinthru
    Joined: Jul 23, 2010
    Posts: 524

    justpassinthru
    Member

    When you are all done installing the clutches the ideal clutch pack clearance is to have the friction clutch right below the bottom of the snap ring groove in the drum.
     
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  12. petbir
    Joined: Jul 15, 2014
    Posts: 32

    petbir

    Thats what i removed, but can not get the new ones to fit. I end up with a steel at the top. When i put one more friction in and the the shaft i can see half of the snap ring trace. Could i have someone machine down the input shaft to make it fit or do I just have the wrong friction plates? The steels are the same thickness as the old ones.

    I have the wavy plate in the direct drum and to me the new clutches looks the same as the ones I removed except the old ones where really worn in the forward drum.
    I've got the direct clutch ready, just cant get the last friction plate in the forward.
    The new frictions are really thin. I'll measure them exactly this week.
     
  13. justpassinthru
    Joined: Jul 23, 2010
    Posts: 524

    justpassinthru
    Member

    Sorry I forgot to look up the sizes of the standard frictions. I will do it Tuesday.
    They say memory is the second thing to go!

    You say the new frictions are really thin, which is correct and the steels are the same thickness as the old ones and the old forward frictions were really worn, but there were 4 frictions and 3 steels when you took it apart, which is also correct.
    If I understand you right, you can get 3 frictions and 3 steels in and the 4th friction is too much.
    Either the piston or the pressure plate is not all the way down in the drum or the frictions are too thick.
    If memory serves me right, I think the standard size forward friction is about .060-.065 thick, along with a couple of oversized frictions available to adjust for clearance.

    Now dont get me wrong, Im trying to help you get down to the bottom of the problem, but are you sure the piston is bottomed in the drum. Is there a round steel ring on the inner diameter of the piston and a belville spring with the concave facing the piston and then a snap ring holding the beville spring in the drum and then the lower pressure plate?

    I will get back to you Tues. with the friction thickness.
    I wont forget this time as I wrote it on my hand with a Magic Marker!
    Bill
     
  14. petbir
    Joined: Jul 15, 2014
    Posts: 32

    petbir

    Haha thats geat, writing down things on your own hand always works.
    Any tips are welcome as i have never done this before. Mutch appreciated!
    Will check the piston and friction thiclness next time i'm at it.
    Thank you!
     
  15. justpassinthru
    Joined: Jul 23, 2010
    Posts: 524

    justpassinthru
    Member

    Getting back with you on the thickness of the frictions and steels. Accorcing to my parts book.
    Standard Forward Frictions are .060
    Standard Direct Frictions are .095
    Steels for both drums are .070
    Again there are different thickness frictions for both drums from various years and also oversize to help adjust clearance.
    Good luck
    Bill
     
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  16. rotorwrench
    Joined: Apr 21, 2006
    Posts: 633

    rotorwrench
    Member

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  17. petbir
    Joined: Jul 15, 2014
    Posts: 32

    petbir

    Thats exactly what it looks like. And all frictions are 0.06". Its so close! I can se half of the snap ring groove but can not get thw ring to snap in it. Cant understand whats wrong.
     
  18. petbir
    Joined: Jul 15, 2014
    Posts: 32

    petbir

    Pic
     

    Attached Files:

  19. petbir
    Joined: Jul 15, 2014
    Posts: 32

    petbir

    I'm guessing I can force the snap ring in place by compressing the clutch. But that seems wrong?
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
  20. justpassinthru
    Joined: Jul 23, 2010
    Posts: 524

    justpassinthru
    Member

    Looking at the photo, the piston is no where near bottomed out in the drum and it looks like the belville spring is upside down. The center hole in the piston should be right around flush with the the drum and the belville spring goes in dish facing down.

    Take the drum back apart and see what is keeping the piston from bottoming in the drum. Either the seals are pinched or the checkball fell out of the piston and is wedged between the piston and drum.

    One word of caution, be very careful not to break the sealent rings on the shaft when going back together with it. They are very thin and will break easily.
    Bill
     
  21. petbir
    Joined: Jul 15, 2014
    Posts: 32

    petbir

    Allright! So someone put the spring in reversed before me.
    The book says you need an arbor press to get it back together?
     
  22. justpassinthru
    Joined: Jul 23, 2010
    Posts: 524

    justpassinthru
    Member

    You dont need a press to put the snap ring back in. Put the belville spring in the drum and you will be able to start the snap ring in the groove by cocking the spring a little. Then work the the snap ring in the groove by tapping it around with a screw driver and hammer. It will go in fine.

    Be sure to take the piston out and check the seals and that checkball. If compressed air was blown through the checkball hole, it will blow the ball out of the piston. There is just a little metal retainer that holds the ball in the piston and can break or get bent .

    Put the piston in the drum without the seals on it and see how far down it goes. The center should be flush with the drum and the same way with the seals on it.

    Separate the forward drum from the direct drum and sun shaft and take it apart.
    After reassembling the drum install the clutches and check for clearance without the hub.

    While you are at it remove the sunshaft from the direct drum and double check that the sealent rings are intact and all the needle bearings are in the direct drum. Then reinstall the shaft in the direct drum being careful not to break the rings or knock needle bearing out of place.

    Now stand the drum and shaft up on the bench and install 2 thrust washers on the direct drum, one steel with notches in the ID and one bronze. Then install the forward drum without the clutches, hub and input shaft. This way you can work the drum into the clutches and over the rings easier.
    Install the pressure plate, hub, clutches, thrust washer and input shaft and snap ring and another bronze thrust washer in that order.
    The last snap ring should go in without any trouble.

    Again I cant stress more on breaking the sealent rings. Back in the day many a trans builder broke the rings by manhandling and found out when the trans didnt work!

    One tip about reinstalling the assembly in the case. Install the planetary with the center support on to the drums. leave the last two sealent rings off the sun gear shaft, the sprag, washers etc for now. Then put the outshaft and ring gear on without the governor support. Doing this gives you something to hold on to while assembling.

    Install the front band in the case and then slide the assembly into the case through the front band.
    Install two center support bolts through the case and then remove the output shaft and planetary.

    Install the rear band in the case and the rest of the components, washers sealent rings, sprag etc, dont forget the two last sealent rings!
    Then install the output shaft and ring gear, then the governor support, (some call it the case support) and gasket.
    If the unit is early enough it will have a rear pump also. It has to be assembled as you go, not as a complete assembly with the output shaft and ring gear as there are two gears and a drive pin that goes into a hole in the output shaft that have to be lined up.
    Doing it this way is easier than how the book says to do it.

    You should also disassemble and clean the valve body and governor as they were especially prone to the valves sticking due to crap in the valve body. This is also where rebuilders would screw up. They wouldnt do this due to there are many valve and spring and check balls and took too long to do, so they wouldnt do it and the trans would work right.

    Iassume you are a novice at taking on a transmission that back in the day was very complicated compared to the rest of the transmissions that were common then and many rebuilders messed them up. Compared to modern transmissions that can have 5,6,7,8 speeds with 6 gazillion parts and electronics its not so complicated, its actually primitive.

    With the way transmissions have evolved, I am glad my shop nowdays specializes only in antique, vintage and muscle car type transmissions now. I no longer rebuild late model stuff, and dont care to anymore.

    Good luck.
    Bill
     
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  23. petbir
    Joined: Jul 15, 2014
    Posts: 32

    petbir

    Thank you so mutch, Bill!
    Got the piston out and replaced the sealing rings and then seated it right.
    Dont think the spring was the wrong way, it was just pressed up by the piston. I'll attach a photo to see if i'm right.

    I have allready taken everything apart and cleaned it. The control valve body took a bit of time but went fine.. really glad i did that when I saw all the goo in there haha
     

    Attached Files:

  24. justpassinthru
    Joined: Jul 23, 2010
    Posts: 524

    justpassinthru
    Member

    Good, glad you got it together. In the photo of the drum its really hard to tell which way the spring is. As long as the center of the spring is dished toward the piston its correct.
    Bill
     
  25. Mikealoop
    Joined: Apr 23, 2018
    Posts: 2

    Mikealoop

    Hello, I was having a hell of a time trying to drop the sunshaft down into the drums when assembling it vertically because the new sealent rings kept getting caught up. Already had broke one in the process.

    Using your method to install the sunshaft into the front drum without the clutch pack make it much easier! But now I'm not sure how to get the rear band in over the sunshaft. It seems like a puzzle, but I just can't seem to make it fit.

    Is there any trick to this?

    Thanks,
    Mike
     

    Attached Files:

  26. justpassinthru
    Joined: Jul 23, 2010
    Posts: 524

    justpassinthru
    Member

    The rear band goes in through the hole in the back of the case.
    Put it in on an angle starting the band lugs first. It will go in.

    Bill
     
  27. Mikealoop
    Joined: Apr 23, 2018
    Posts: 2

    Mikealoop

    Oh, I see. I guess I was hesitant to sqeeze the band too much. It did not take much though. Thank you!
     

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