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Folks Of Interest Crap sack mechanics , does anyone know why they do the work they do?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by VANDENPLAS, Apr 28, 2018.

  1. Part of all this comes from the attitude of I built my fort car and got fired from my printer repair job @ Billy Bob's Printer repair service. (no offense intended to a great soft/hardware engineer who is also as good a mechanic as I know on here ;) ) I think that it is a sign that I should open a hot rod shop.

    I personally think that being a mechanic/fabricator is a combination of natural talent/aptitude and learned skill. There are things that you just seem to know unless you just are not cut out for the job.

    That said I have Gerry Rigged things on my own cars because being a mechanic sometimes is like being a plumber, your stuff is sometimes neglected. :oops::rolleyes: I would not do some of the things I have done to get by on my own vehicles to a customer car.

    I have by the way linked two clamps together because it was what I had to do to get me someplace to buy a proper sized clamp. And knowing this for a truth, "anything temporary is permanent," so even after I get that clamp it may not get installed right away. :D
  2. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 5,186


    This is why the no Rat rod rule.
    jvo likes this.
  3. Most of what I end up sorting out is stuff that the "Professional" mechanics have screwed up. If everyone who has that little certificate hangin' on the wall has already fixed it until its broken it lands with me.

    I chuckle because if I didn't I would cry ( or kill someone). About 10 years ago now (maybe 12) I overhauled a 283 for a guy. It was a '59 motor and was freshly overhauled by a professional mechanic, who proceeded to install on rod backward. Won't do details but if it could be screwed up it was. Anyway we put the mill in the guys car and when he left it was runnin like a bandit.

    Fast forward about a month or two he rolls into my drive and says that his motor won't pull and you have to crank it and pump the hell out of it to get it to start. The mechanic at so ad so's garage, fried chicken and tires repaired said that it needed to be rebuilt. So he brought it back to me. I guess he decided that it needed a tune up (which should have entailed changing the plugs as I had already done the 500 mile thing to it). I heard him pull up so I said, "Who changed the timing?" He said the mechanic had thrown a light on it and said it was timed wrong. I told him to crank it up which he did. I loosened the distributer gave it a spin until it sounded right, whacked the gas to clean it, it revved instantly. I told him to shut it off, we drank a cup of coffee then I told him to start it. He hit the key it started within about half a crank and settled into a perfect rumpidy rump. We went for a drive and it pulled like a freight train. The I told him that he could change his own damned plugs and not to let a "Mechanic" play with it again.
    Engine man, zzford, Hnstray and 2 others like this.
  4. You don't need a degree or certification to open an auto repair business. Just sign up with the state for the shingle outside the shop that says you are a registered shop. I worked for one guy, horrible mechanic, the ultimate hack. He hired good mechanics and had his steady customers. I left there soon, everything was a rush over doing it right. I had too much integrity at stake.
    pat59 likes this.
  5. in ct i had to take a test, show the minimum years of experience [4?] and produce the required tools and equipment to do the trade. new york sounds easy
  6. I just read up on it, nothing about schooling or training. All they want in NY is for you to be signed up so the state gets their cut of the action. I was ASE trained in brakes, front end, tune-up, etc. Most good shops advertise they are an ASE-certified shop.
  7. Up here it’s a 5 year ( roughly) apprenticeship at least when I did it way back when 9700 hours of working in a shop, then 3 months a year for 3-4 years, dont remember exactly right now. Then a test and you had to get over 70 to pas and over 85 got you a “Red seal certificate” wich meant uou were a bit better then the rest.
    The first year class was jam packed, had 3 classes running . By third year there was only 1 class. It really did help to wear out the nincompoops.
  8. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,669

    from Alabama

    There is more to it than intelligence. It takes natural talent. There is some really smart people that literally do not have the sense to get out of the rain. Look at Einstein. That joker could not comb his own hair.

    True story......
    In the early 60s a local kid from Huntsville Al was hired as a janitor at the Space and Rocket Center. This kid was just out of high school. He was raised on a farm.
    Literally two rocket scientists were discussing a problem with the nozzle of the rocket melting due to too much heat. No matter what material was used the nozzle failed. This kid with broom in his hand interrupted the conversation.....
    " Excuse me I ......I have a suggestion"
    The two scientists looked at him like he had a horn growing out of his head.
    " Instead of a solid material, why not make the nozzle out of hollow tubes? That way it should shed heat before it melts."

    They sent that kid to school and patented his design for him.

    The tube design was used on the Saturn 5 and on the main shuttle engines.
    46international and zzford like this.
  9. zzford
    Joined: May 5, 2005
    Posts: 1,823


    If you're lucky.
  10. wicarnut
    Joined: Oct 29, 2009
    Posts: 6,291


    Speaking from experience, there is a balance in running a busines, IMO you have to be skilled, fair, reputable and profitable to survive long term success, 36 years in my case. Again my IMO, the automobile and construction have the most complaints at BBB in any state as the incompetence/dishonesty is high in these 2 areas, but the volume is so high that they do survive for a while, they don't have to rely on repeat business. Now at 70, have had experience's dealing with both good/ bad, but thats how it is, again IMO, it's getting worse, what happen to Honesty/Integrity/Courtesy, End of rant this AM.
  11. Honesty has been an issue since Moses brought the law,
    integrity and courtesy is being replaced by proud entitlement.

    It's a 2 way street as well, sometimes it's a 5 way round about.
    Purely hypothetical and for discussion purposes, the names have been changed to protect the innocent and any resemblance to actual situations is purely coincidental. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Let's say there's a 5ry acquaintance and occasional customer who's A Hard working single mom going to school experiences a catastrophic failure on her vehicle. She calls and begs for help with a $3,000 repair estimate from other shops. On the phone she explains the situation and the other estimates quoting her 3grand for a used engine swap. Begs for help and says she only has $800 to her name but will have more in a few weeks time. Please please please can you help, if I give you the 800 will you work with me on the rest??? Please.. And I'm in a hurry, my car is running but making noises.

    Can y'all see where this goes ??

    Ok so I offer to help, call around and everyplace I use or can find or EBay wants around 1800 for a 100k plus engine. That eats 4 hrs of my day, Fuck me right!! Phone rings did you find an engine yet?? My car is going to blow up. Now I take a guy, drive an hour to the shittiest bone yard around that never answers the phone and if they do has no idea of their inventory. It's a gamble going there but it's COOL because you walk the yard carrying a battery, hunt down and find what you want, start it up and see what you got. If it's what you want they will sell you any engine and transmission for $350 and you just heard it run..great deal but a gamble. 4 hrs later I'm back at my shop with a very nice clean engine for her car @ $350.00. That's 8hrs of my time so far plus fuel plus a helper - that's all time not spent on other projects. Call her up and tell her the good news, she brings the car down but no money.

    I look over the car for the first time, the other estimates and wondering WTF is going on here because this car DOES not need an engine. It's making top end noises ticking noise in the valve train and the oil pressure light is on. One estimate stated there was excessive metallic grindings in the drained oil, all three said the engine was knocking. Of course I'm a bit baffled here and start investigating, beginning to wonder if I have the same car. Drop the ac compressor pull the oil pressure sensor and install a guage, reads 4 psi oil pressure. Next we drain the oil and filter it and find ZERO metal. Drop the pan and clean it, zero metal. Pull a few caps and find bearings in great shape with no detectable wear, just used bearings in great shape. The car still had a top end noise and low oil pressure though.

    Y'all know I'm into this for about 10 hrs and an engine I don't need now right?

    So we get a bit deeper in and still can't find the source of any metallic shavings. I make the call that the other shops estimates and diagnosis is full of shit and to be ignored completely. The engine does needs some help, every gasket is leaking and the recommended service procedures need completed. It's a big one and the other engine needed them any ways SOOO ,,,, call the parts store with the list. They fire off a $1500 quote :eek: fuck me again. I get on Amazon and the same list of parts is $650 so they are ordered. Some of that shit was crazy prices even at my discount. 400 oil pump, 95 thermostat 300 timing

    Y'all keeping track here. That's about 12 hrs now, 650 in parts and 350 for an engine I'm hoping I can sell.

    We tore the engine down and changed every single gasket seal and o ring including the head gasket, new oil pump, water pump, timing kit, cam phase actuators. Complete!!! Got it back together and running and call her, "I still have some bugs to work out and it's almost ready but you need to come here and give me that $800.00. "How come it's taking so long??"
    it will be ready tomorrow I tell her.

    She shows up with $500, three hundred short on the $800. Fuck me!! I give her a bill for $1350, her car in tip top shape. I waited a week after the promised date passed then started chasing her for the rest. A week of chasing and I get another $500. Fuck me again. Another week of chasing I get a call, one of those negotiations bullshit where she wants more from me. An affidavit, a detailed break down of the repairs, copies of Amazon invoices, and there's an issue with the car I'm supposed to take care of. Now I'm pissed and feel no obligations to this woman at all, none. I'm bent over backwards and lost money and delayed other projects to help her out. Fuck me again.

    Right about here my honesty went out the window. Along with it went my integrity and courtesy. I told her pay her bill and we can talk more about these other things. I got my money and washed my hands of it.

    That's how you get into the round about.
    My wife told me not to help anybody else, my hands are tied.
    joel, F-ONE, trollst and 4 others like this.
  12. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 11,965

    from Quincy, IL

    Yep......You did a very kind thing for all the right reasons and are to be commended for your effort. Seriously.

    But in the press, and court of public opinion, it’s ALWAYS about the unscrupulous predatory business taking unfair advantage of the the poor unsuspecting innocent consumer. Which does happen too often and can’t be defended. My beef with the press and politicians on these issues is the lack of any semblance of acknowledgment of equally predatory consumers and their often false allegations against decent businesses.

    Only those who have served the retail public have any idea of the range of deception and misrepresentation a portion of the public dishes out on a regular basis. Fortunately, the majority of the public consists of decent people who just want decent results. But given the “protected class” status of consumers in general, the real a$$holes among them rarely get the comeuppance they deserve.

    A long time ago I realized that all of life is “a constant struggle between opposing forces”. It is true in every realm of our existence. Now, you may be tempted to say, as others have, “my gawd, that is such a depressing outlook!”

    Actually no, not for me....or for you either, when you think about it. It’s actually liberating. Understanding what we have to deal with, and why, prepares us to face challenges, knowing many, though not all, can be foreseen.

    A lot of the ‘crap sandwiches’ people are served are the result of not taking steps to prevent, or at least minimize, the foreseeable problems.

    There are plenty of rewards in a life well lived, though it won’t be a gala party 24/7/365........

    Last edited: May 1, 2018
  13. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,476

    Engine man
    from Wisconsin

    So if I understand your position, you feel voluntary compliance is enough to keep people who don't know what they are doing from putting dangerous vehicles on the road? Maybe we don't need to have driver licensing laws to make certain that drivers know how to drive and the rules of the road? Maybe we don't need to have annual inspections of commercial vehicles because nobody would run unsafe vehicles on the road? Maybe we don't need to make manufacturers meet safety standards for motor vehicles because none of them will cut corners?

    I don't have your faith in humanity. I've seen too many vehicles on the road that should not be on the road. I've seen inspection forms being pencil whipped by people who've never even seen the vehicle. I worked for a car dealership where the used car lot took in a vehicle on a trade and brought the completed form in for me to sign without looking at the vehicle. I've seen equipment that was found to be in violation at a state inspection and management wanted me to sign the form saying repairs had been made when they hadn't so it could be put back into service. The last two years that I worked, corporate decided that they didn't want the liability of inspecting our own equipment so each location was to find an outside company to provide the inspections. The first one they hired resulted in two trailers being red tagged out of service by state inspectors. The also bought a used trailer from a company who inspected it prior to delivery. The brakes didn't work at all. I could put my fingers between the shoes and drums. Private companies are in business to make money. If they can get more business by letting things slide so the company that hired them to do inspections doesn't have to pay for repairs.

    Government hired inspectors don't have the pressure to let things slide by, I'm sure there have been cases of bribery but most are probably honest.
  14. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,476

    Engine man
    from Wisconsin

    You don't always get what you pay for but you seldom get more than what you pay for!
    Saxon and Hnstray like this.
  15. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 11,965

    from Quincy, IL

    Much of your rebuttal makes my case.........laws do not insure compliance of the unlawful and irresponsible person.
    In several of the examples you cite, yes, the laws are necessary to bring as much compliance as can be reasonably achieved...i.e. heavy commercial vehicles being a good example.....there is a hell of a difference between an up to 80,000 lb 65' long tractor trailer rig careening down the road at 65 + mph that has faulty equipment....combined with the sheer numbers of such rigs that are on our roads 24/7/365....compared to the total number of hot rods on the road at any given time. Usually the latter in daytime and good weather....Apply a little proportionality to this debate.

    I could go on with other reasoned examples on the subject, but you are entitled to your opinions as am I.
    There are plenty of totalitarian governments in the world that try to tightly control every aspect of their citizens lives........the results of that are obvious to anyone who cares to look. If that looks good to you, go for it
    at the ballot box. "Those who are willing to exchange freedom for security end up with neither". It's an imperfect world we live in...that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make improvements...but mostly they will come from people being motivated to make better choices, not mandates.

    Last edited: May 1, 2018
    Ned Ludd likes this.
  16. A friend of mine has been the partner in a good repair shop for 40 years. They are honest, always fix the car the first time, give the owner options even for payments. They are always busy and have customers that have been with them for 40 years. The kids and grandkids come to the shop too to have their cars fixed. Xmas time, they always have customers bringing them donuts, cookies, buying lunch. Really amazing to see that happening, that someone actually runs a business the right way.
    wicarnut, chevy57dude and Hnstray like this.
  17. Xtrom
    Joined: Mar 23, 2010
    Posts: 1,013

    from Forman, ND

    When I bought this 53 F100 it was a mess. I bet it had 200 zip ties on it. A license plate shielding heat from the master cylinder. Carpet bump stop on the axle. Shock mount well below scrub angle. The driveshaft didn't even vibrate! The fuel line was plumbed into the drain so it was the lowest point on a very low vehicle. Shift linkage was zip tied. And I had seen this guy pull a trailer 200 plus miles with this thing! Needless to say I spent a good weekend doing repairs on it before I felt safe driving it myself.

    Attached Files:

  18. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 4,511

    from Ioway

    I've thought about this. Cars used to be easier to work on. Hesitate to use the word fun, business is business. No question though, there were a lot of "fiddly bits" and they needed attention. Steady stream of people whi can't, or won't, work on their cars. Regulations weren't all encompassing like today and ya didn't have to get a permit from your competitors to hang out your shingle. It would have been a great job, it seems to me. Tune-ups, oil changes, tires, brakes, etc.

    Do good work, charge a fair realistic price and have all the business you could ever handle and then some. I wouldn't want to try it today.
    Hnstray likes this.
  19. My buddy admits that cars are getting harder to fix each passing year. But they keep on top of training and certificates. The shop keeps 3 guys in the garage pretty busy. They offer other services, glass work, welding as examples. They bring in outside people for things.

    One place by where I work, it used to be a full-service shop. Now all he does is TBA, tires, battery and accessory type work. This is one of the oldest shops around but he knows his limits. Still a good friendly place to get brakes, inspections, oil changes and light work done.
  20. In Alberta our apprenticeship program is four years, you come to school for two months a year and work under th supervision of a journeyman for the rest. You need a minimum of 70% on the final test each year to pass and the red seal is a separate test that lets you work in any province except Quebec. It’s mandatory to be a journeyman or registered apprentice to work in the trade in Canada

    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
    VANDENPLAS likes this.
  21. Kind of scary a guy with a 70% can be cut loose to work on stuff he may not have mastered.
    Maybe wired stuff and HVAC have a part in the total and not knowing a few systems will average the 100% mastered down to 70 total???

    A 70 is bare bare bare minimum passing for grade school kids.
    VANDENPLAS likes this.
  22. 59Tele
    Joined: Feb 5, 2016
    Posts: 129


    Very thought-provoking thread. In one sense it becomes the "Nature versus Nurture" discussion, in the sense that to address the OP's question it becomes a matter of inexperience (let's call that the Nurture part) or apathy (let's call that the Nature part). I'd suppose it would be one or the other or both but it's always there, just as it is for the producers of quality. I was raised to do the right thing. I drove countless 50-dollar cars as a kid but the first thing that happened when I brought them home was the drums were pulled to inspect the brakes, brakelines, lights, wipers, balljoints, anything required to pass inspection, but the point is I would have done it regardless. Dad might have checked my work once and then never again. We had an understanding - unsafe vehicles do not belong on the road. That would be my "Nurture" part. Not everybody is as fortunate as I was.
    Another point I'd raise is that many of us here started with the magazines at a young age, so right off the bat we got an eyeful of what excellence looks like and how to achieve it, if we actually looked beyond the shiny paint and read the "how-to" articles on hydraulics, electrical systems and all the rest. It doesn't take much to point a kid in the right direction if there's an innate interest: you guys are living proof of that, 50 or 60 years down the road in some cases. That would be the "Nature" part. Celebrate that.
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
  23. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 11,965

    from Quincy, IL

    While it is easy to ‘demand’ higher test scores to qualify for certification for a given skill set, at least two related questions come to mind. How are the standards selected and justified.....and who detemines if the test, as written, is effective at measuring the candidate’s grasp of the subject matter?

    Further, if the average person’s intellect is, well, ‘average’ (which is not the same thing as ‘median’) how do we attract the more capable people from the general pool of candidates and how do we motivate them to excel? Combine that with market demand for some number needed to fill available openings and one quickly sees the challenges of staffing and training in the workplace. There is plenty of evidence throughout our educational system of so called ‘dumbing down’ of standards to meet the agendas of various interested parties.

    As with all other commodities, “supply and demand” determines value. In our current cultural values though, even highly skilled and well paid ‘tradesmen’ jobs have been stripped of any prestige associated with their ‘blue collar’ professions in favor of college educated people with few real world skills. That will need to change, and may, but not quickly.

    Last edited: May 2, 2018
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  24. I have a buddy who is a service manager for a big foreign car dealership. 27 mechanics and only 3 are really good. The others spend time on the phone with their help line to fix everything. I would guess that the dealers have training programs, you get only so far at a BOCES or other voc-tech program. Even at my job... age 63 and I'm still taking mandatory training that we HAVE to get an 80 or above. Part of my goals for the year. I did 7 modules last year and 6 this year so far.
    VANDENPLAS and Hnstray like this.
  25. I see it in all trades where people are either scared or unwilling to learn anything more then they need to.

    I worked with a guy at jaguar that was a great jag tech, great at wiring diagnostic all the finesse stuff.
    He owned a 98 crown Vic . Had no clue how to fix it, had no clue about press in ball joints, drum brakes etc. If it wade to a jag he was clueless and had 0 interest in learning anything about anything else.

    Work with guys now that have been forklift techs for 20-30 years and only work on electric trucks, propane? Radiator? Tune up? Huh?

    When I started at jag there was the “ old guy” that worked on the v12’s and the old e-types S-types etc no one else wanted anything to do with them. I loved em real easy money and the owners of those cars felt they were driving a piece of history and hours be damned they needed there jag running righ. Made some silly money in my 20’s working on that stuff and learned a lot of skills

    Now I left automotive and went into forklifts at a independed shop, so no real training mostly hands on and ask the other techs questions etc.
    I’m now working on skidsteers, sweepers , scrubbers, front end loaders, shredders, bailers, dock plates. Whatever I’ll give it a kick at the can.

    If it’s somethimg new I’ve never seen I always let the customer know and have them decided if they want me looking at it or not, never been turned away or had a customer get upset being upfront like this.

    The way I see it is the more I know and the better I can hone my skills, the more I bring to the table as far as job security , pay , etc. Since I was 17 never been outta work never been fired and had a job before I left the last.

    One thing that’s always stuck is something my dad said to me when I was a teenager working on my camaro at 15 or 16 and a little intimidated at tearing the motor down.
    His words “ what are you scared of? It’s nuts and bolts.... some one put it together. You can take it apart, what the worst that will happen? No one will die, you might need to do the job over , once but you’ll learn and won’t do THAT again.

    And that little talk has stuck with me my whole life and that’s how I approach all things in my job and personal life. Makes things easy when you see it like that and at the end of the day it’s a skill you will have for ever.
    Hnstray and williebill like this.
  26. 59Tele
    Joined: Feb 5, 2016
    Posts: 129


    Wow, lots of salient points you've made here. If a visitor from another galaxy were to visit here for a week, they'd pretty quickly arrive at the conclusion that formal education is the panacea for everybody. They'd be wrong. I've always said college is great for really smart and really stupid people: the smart for obvious reasons and the stupid so they'd have something to do with their days after they graduate. I think what we're really talking about here is creativity. Problem-solving. Sure, someone has to crunch the numbers to ensure the bridge doesn't fall down and the airplane flies. Thank God pies are square and not round. What about creativity, and by that I mean addressing ALL aspects of good design: the aesthetics and the structural and the longevity and maybe a few other elements I'm not aware of but maybe will be someday. Can that be taught? Probably not, and the reason I say that is that I've witnessed on this site work done by people, perhaps without the math and physics, glue stuff together that hangs together in a 10-second quarter and is so nice to look at too. THAT is good design, albeit based on tradition and acquired and shared knowledge. Tribal, if you will. If there was one course I would insist upon being introduced into the education system it would be called "The Pursuit Of Excellence". K through 12. Think of the possibilities. The DC-3s so shot full of holes there were more holes than plane and the fuckers still flew. The Surfers in the final round with cardboard taped over the hole in the side of the block with 7 pistons doing the work and they damn near won. Michelangelo working in the quarries to fully understand the material he'd be working with. Stradivarius going into the forest with his hammer and banging on trees 'til he found "The One". That's the shit. What kid wouldn't want to sit in that class and pay attention in spite of himself? They might learn that the world extends pretty far beyond what's under their two thumbs. If curriculum was based on human nature instead of a market share this country would have a real shot at being great again. A fella can dream....
    31Vicky with a hemi and Hnstray like this.
  27. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 11,965

    from Quincy, IL

    59tele, I really like your comments and thought process.....but have one ...uhhh...'correction' to offer..

    "Pie are not square, pie are round.....cornbread are square"

    Kidding aside, I agree with your observation about the folks on this site who have impressive talent in both engineering and esthetic design, and probably did not formally study the underlying physics and art that support their achievements.

    Yet...there it is....the project they developed to great success for the purpose intended! How does that happen? I am convinced that curious minds and keen observation combined with deductive (analytical) and inductive reasoning produce such results. These talented folks obviously exist in other 'universes' as well.(not just the on the HAMB forum).

    The 'curious mind' finds almost any information interesting. At any given moment, the particular bit of info may not have obvious relevance....but make note of it anyway. One day, another bit of info comes along, and the first bit is recalled, and a link between them is noticed.

    A few more such observations and a 'picture' emerges and sense is made of it all. Multiply that by the number of 'almost any information is interesting' observations made, and you end up with a lot of potentially useful data in your head.

    Overall though, I think such minds are in the minority. Decades ago, I had a close friend whose personality and good humor I thoroughly enjoyed. But I used to kid him about "living in a 3 foot circle". If it wasn't happening under his nose (and even if it was) Lee paid no attention to it UNLESS it had immediate benefit to his rather narrow range of interests. But Lee was not stupid...he actually was quite innately intelligent. He just had limited interests and was okay with that.

    Last edited: May 2, 2018
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  28. Moselli
    Joined: Feb 16, 2009
    Posts: 99


    Let me start by saying that I'm not a youngster. I started working on cars in the early '60's, progressed to racecars in the late '60's and early '70's. Here are some personal observations from the past 50+ years related to people, mechanical skills and workmanship.

    When I was learning (make that trying to learn) how to work on cars, I found it was very difficult to get a top notch mechanic to offer advice or help teach me the proper way to do many of the basic tasks, but they were quick to be critical of things I had done. It became apparent to me that their lack of desire to help me or share their knowledge was based on their perceived lost of superiority and probably ego. I said to myself, "Fuck you and I'll see you somewhere down the road, assbag!"

    I started working with the "average" dudes and together with all of the best books and written knowledge we could find, we made mistakes, we learned and we got better. In point of fact we became as good if not better at many things than the so called experts. I also made a promise to myself that I would never be critical of the work of anyone and instead, I would offer up and freely share my knowledge, advice and experience that I have learned to help them improve the safety or quality of their project.

    I've made a lot of friends in my lifetime....

    Chavezk21, williebill, pat59 and 3 others like this.
  29. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,257


    He picked the right place to speak up, a good friends stepdad was the lead scientist that developed the guidance system on the Saturn rocket. He had a 10th grade education, that was as far as he got when Werner VonBraun hired him to work on the V2 millils and he came to America after WWII.
    31Vicky with a hemi and Hnstray like this.
  30. Project paper clip

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