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Craftsmanship...who really cares?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by theHIGHLANDER, Sep 7, 2009.

  1. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN

    I'm new to the scene, so I'm not going to profess to be all ho-fessional and all that jazz, but I do the best I can. To some eyes, it probably sucks. I'm not doing a body off restoration, so that would probably draw some looks..."You just up and painted the leaf springs while attached to the shackles? wtf?"....um...yeah....until I can get time to take the body off, it was a better option than letting rust have its' way.

    I obsess over little things, like the .5 mm nick in the fresh paint job on my new engine that I painted yesterday. I always try to do things as right as possible, and I think a lot of other people do, too. I think the *big* difference is that I don't think my work is golden, much to the contrary. The problem would be people who think theirs is great and others is crap. If they don't know what they're doing, politely try to instruct them. If they come to you asking questions, don't be a douche...answer it for them so they can do it right. Not much good in bitching about others shoddy work if you're not trying to be nice and help them do it right. People only know they're doing it wrong if they've been notified they're doing it wrong.

    I'm DEFINITELY a perfectionist....I always thing everybody else's work on here is perfect, and mine is crap! ;)
     
  2. roddinron
    Joined: May 24, 2006
    Posts: 2,677

    roddinron
    Member

    Funny that we're putting this much importance on cars. This problem has permeated our entire society, no one takes pride in quality, it's all just get it done quick, and get the money. Very few people ever take the time to learn how to do it right, or even want to.
    If you really want to worry about quality, just watch a tv commercial for some health care training school. There's girls on there who you can barely understand what they're saying, telling you how they got a great career in health care in 6 short months!
    Wait till you're old and dependent on her for your very life, then a little bondo on a hot rod won't seem so bad anymore.
     
  3. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,312

    oj
    Member

    I've work on these cars for a living and it dosn't take long befor you can see the difference between the enthieusiests' work, the well-intentioned work, the got-in-over-my-head professional work and what a professional can do. All the cobbeled up work that is done by the got-in-over-my-head professional costs just as much as what a proper job done by a pro can do. When a project turns to shit a proper pro will back up (in workmanship) to where the work is ok and redo the whole mess, he knows how to do this and he has done it often enough that he isn't upset. The got-in-over....will throw mud over the top, weld a patch panel, glue a piece of carpet, throw a bunch of tye wraps...whatever but he won't back up. He'll spend hours trying to hide/cover up/conceal a cobbleled up mess instead of admitting a mistake. I saw one of those builders' shows where the host was bragging about this minitruck they were getting ready for Vegas and how they did suicide doors. From what they showed i could see they did the hinges wrong, they would throw the door right back into the body. Sure enough the host was inside the truck opened the door and climbed out talking to the camera and you could hear the crunching of sheet metal binding up and he just talked right thru it. I've never bothered to watch any of those shows again.
    We all make mistakes, the guy you want doing your work is the guy that admits to a mistake and does a proper job of making it right. Somebody that can accept the fact that he isn't perfect but is confident in his talent.
     
  4. Good thread! I try to attend as many shows as I can. I'm proud of the work I do to my rides. I do my homework and I pay attention to the important details of what would make a stand out ride. I can't stand that they allow some garbage Rat Crap car at some of these venues. I was so pissed off at this Crap Rod parked next to my truck at the GNRS 2009. What he did was totally intentional. Our club had four car outside Suede Palace (Thurs.-Sun.). One of the guys took off early Sat. So I was on my way to the show so I can catch him before he leaves. I was to late. I see that this dick head in his JUNK parked between our cars and with a flat. I asked the guy if he could swap spots so I can park next to my club cars. The guy said,"I can't man. Can't you see I have a flat." WTF!
    I say to my self, Really is this allowed and excepted now. This guy built this thing with the intent to stir up the pot.Some people just need that attention.

    2 weeks before the event I was on a mission to make my tube grill on my truck. I made it from scratch had no clue what I was getting my self into. It was difficult but I stuck to my guns and moved forward.I wanted to have something to give to show. Payed $45 on materials & $450 to chrome it. I was proud of the results and so were my club brothers.
    Craftsmanship.... I care!
     
  5. Chaoticcustoms
    Joined: Sep 20, 2008
    Posts: 270

    Chaoticcustoms
    Member

    I am part of this younger crowd some of you really dislike. And well frankly i dislike most of them also. Im a pretty picky person when i comes to my bodywork. Am i the best? Hell no. Do i try my hardest, hell yes. I always took great pride in my work. But i was geared more toward restoration and that sort. I NEVER made the hours at my shop. I closed doors and moved, and a collision shop is a breeding ground for hackwork. I couldnt do it. Some few guys can haul ass and do a good job. Im just not that guy i guess. I had to get out as i became allergic to paint and it put me into the hospital a couple times. but some are completely right about craftsmanship. I try my hardest and i wont do something unless i can be proud of it. Do it once and do it right ive tried to always live by. Idk my generation kinda sucks. But it is very hard to make a living on a bodymans paycheck in this economy. I see both sides.
     
  6. 39 All Ford
    Joined: Sep 15, 2008
    Posts: 1,531

    39 All Ford
    Member
    from Benton AR

    I have a little something to add,

    My 55 Lincoln looks pretty good from 15 feet.

    The drivers quarter was obviously SMASHED at some point.

    This quarter was "repaired" with some kind of large patch (front to back) put on the car using sheet metal screws and mudded over. I knew this when I bought the car.

    Likely this "repair" was made in the late 70s of early 80s, (my guess), overall, the rest of the car is really pretty good for a driver, no other b.s. repairs.

    It would be easy for me to be discouraged, disappointed, or even mad about this repair, but the fact of the matter is that -MOST LIKELY- the car would not have survived the 80s without getting crushed, ground, and melted into a Toyota without this cheap ass repair.

    I am of the opinion that a lot of cheap ass repairs have kept a lot of the cars we now enjoy on the road (and out of Asia) for us to enjoy and to fix NOW.

    Most everything has an up side and a down side. Shitty repairs included....
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
  7. havi
    Joined: Dec 30, 2008
    Posts: 1,877

    havi
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Craftsmanship? I care about my own. And respect those who care about their own....whether it's "perfect" or not.
     
  8. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN

    Here's two of the lovely "repairs" that I have to fix on my ride:

    [​IMG]

    The last owner thought that it would be a good idea to plug the rotted rear quarters with expandable foam, carve, bondo, then paint! Huzzah!

    Fix number two:

    [​IMG]

    riveting galvanized to the rotted door bottoms, then bondo and paint! ;P

    I've never welded *anything* onto a car in my life...and I'm smart enough to have a trusted neighbor show me how when the time comes!

    Another key is being able to say "I've got no idea what the hell I'm doin'...so I'm gonna consult a professional." The restoration shop down the road has a shop foreman who is nice as can be...I always stop in to ask questions and they never turn me away.
     
  9. Special Ed
    Joined: Nov 1, 2007
    Posts: 7,129

    Special Ed
    Member

    I love your attitude. Point well taken...:)
     
  10. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN


    Point taken....
     
  11. havi
    Joined: Dec 30, 2008
    Posts: 1,877

    havi
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    poboyross, I'm LOL because my last '73 IH 1210 had galvanized door repairs, expand-a-foam in all the holes, floorboards, etc... and carved 2x4's nailed together to form the rear lower cab corner, done by the PO.
     
  12. onlychevrolets
    Joined: Jan 23, 2006
    Posts: 2,307

    onlychevrolets
    Member


    ok the I.B.E.W.
     
  13. 49ratfink
    Joined: Feb 8, 2004
    Posts: 18,226

    49ratfink
    Member
    from California

    sometimes hack work holds up. I did the old slide hammer and bondo "fix" on a quarter panel in 1978. car was black primer and it looked good when done. I'm sure it was 1/2 inch thick at least, and none of the slide hammer holes were welded up. I was going to try to push it out from the inside, but couldn't get the window crank off to remove the rear interior panel. don't remember what the problem was.

    I was 18 and didn't have a clue. I saw the car still in black primer at a swap meet a couple years ago for sale and the quarter was no worse for wear.

    did the best I could with the knowledge and tools available to me at the time.

    I know a guy with a shop and actual paying customers who isn't any better than the first shit work I ever did. dude just seems uninterested in doing anything well.
     
  14. Brahm
    Joined: Oct 4, 2001
    Posts: 487

    Brahm
    Member

    ..eh i do as much work as I can myself including body work and paint. Is it perfect nope, do I care no. Do I try my best sure do but at some point I'd rather be driving then perfecting.

    When I first got my car I had it professionally painted (14-15 years ago) one thing I learned quickly is I love wrenching on my cars, I love driving my cars, and I love racing my cars. Which means, my cars get beat up pretty fast. Maybe I'm clumsy, but I get nicks and scratches pretty regularly (of my own fault). I couldn't care less about car shows..or really what most other people think about my car, as long as she looks good to me, and in motion it's good enough. I don't build em to sell em. I build em to drive, maybe one day I'll get good enough to turn out top notch work, but until then it's just something I do on my days off because I enjoy it...

    I never was good at building model cars when I was a kid, always got glue on the windshields, so I can't see myself ever building that "perfect" car. At a point, some people just don't got it what it takes to do some things, and perfecting every little detail on a car well, I just get fed up frustrated and over it, sometimes the harder you try the more you screw it up! (ref. the 40 scratches i put in my fender when installing my front bumper), but that's alright some of us can do a bit of everything..and some of us excel at one thing.

    When it comes to my cars, Just don't get to close you might see the rust bubbles popping back up, or the fact my hood doesn't align perfectly...but then again if your getting that close your probably crossing over the line and just red lit :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
  15. Johnny1290
    Joined: Apr 20, 2006
    Posts: 2,834

    Johnny1290
    Member

    You get what you pay for. Most people won't spend the money for high quality work.

    I've probably put way better quality parts in my car than is sensible ROI wise.

    When I get to the body work , which is coming up, I've been asking myself, do I really need to make a repair that'll last 50 years?

    I'm not suggesting it, but I've seen lots of crap bondo work that had no business lasting the decades that it did.

    I'm not a restoration guy, I'm not rich, I'm not a craftsman. a 10 footer is OK enough for me, and by the time the rust bubble shows or bondo cracks, maybe I'll have more money, skills, time, or tools to fix it right.

    They don't all have to be perfection, ya know? Id never get anything done if it had to be perfect.

    If someone wants to take a magnet to my car, well, they're going to be disappointed that it doesn't stick to 75% of it! :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
  16. junkyardjeff
    Joined: Jul 23, 2005
    Posts: 8,232

    junkyardjeff
    Member

    Everyone needs to remember these cars were just considered old cars and not worth much money when alot of the hack work was done and probably by the owners,now if someone paid for the hack work then there is a problem.
     
  17. My '32 Tudor is in need of some help with "previous work" as well. I agree about the crappy 70's/80's repairs saving these cars for us to fix properly now - I'm kind of glad (just kind of :p) mine needs some work - at least I can say I am responsible for making it right!

    Steve
     
  18. str8axle55
    Joined: Dec 19, 2006
    Posts: 355

    str8axle55
    Member
    from MA

    I`m sure lots were slapped together with wood, bondo, cardboard, and foam to make a quick buck by some POS previos owner.

    "I know a guy with a shop and actual paying customers who isn't any better than the first shit work I ever did. dude just seems uninterested in doing anything well."

    I think I know this guy to, we all do, sad thing is he can do good work, he just doesn`t.

    I gave up paying people to do shit years ago. I do all my own mechanical work, always have, need to get into body work. I`d rather screw it up myself, than pay someone to screw it up for me...
     
  19. torchmann
    Joined: Feb 26, 2009
    Posts: 787

    torchmann
    BANNED
    from Omaha, Ne

    I am in the Union, carpenters local 444 Kansas City district council and we are especially conservative about the quality of our work. Union work should stand out far and above better in quality than "Pancho Villa Construction Impersonators".
    We have whites, blacks, and Latinos in our union and we all do the best that we can do collectively. We watch each other and instruct each other and provide a first rate quality of workmanship to the customer. We are a team and you will be hard pressed to find the level of skill and technical ability on a cut-throat crew of undocumented workers, cheap bums and drug addicts. We are not getting rich. We make on average 550-650 a week after taxes for a full 40 hours at $20/hour for journeymen and 60% of that and up for apprentices which is still 75% to 50% less than most executive level positions.
    The consumer isn't willing in most cases to pay a little extra for the exceptional quality and I do mean a little. the non union contractors paying substandard wages must have more management to direct the less effective work force and they charge almost the same rates (at the corporate level) as union contractors. the cost of (legal) labor is a small difference. The rat outfits make most of their money cheating on taxes and abusing the 1099 contractor classification paying their guys 10-18 an hour with the tax burden on their worker who evades the taxes. I used to work non union as well for some high quality crews. It's the average consumer that doesn't want to spend the extra money because they can't see what the extra money would have bought them untill after their shitty house starts to settle and deteriorate.

    The biggest joke in our economy has been on the consumer who not just accepts the poorer quality from outlaw companies but subsidizes it through their tax dollars. for every buck you save on something substandard it's going to cost you several times more in the long run.
    Perhaps it's just more important for people to project the fascia of having this and that instead of the true blessings of posessing and enjoying the real McCoy.
    If you can't hardly afford it in the first place, you really can't afford to spend on it more than once right?
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2009
  20. jhnarial
    Joined: Mar 18, 2007
    Posts: 410

    jhnarial
    Member
    from MISSOURI


    Right on Steve
     
  21. I care, a lot... real craftmanship is a joy to see. Slobby work just brings me down.
    I always try my best, even if it take ten times longer than "just make it quick".
     
  22. Gator
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 4,016

    Gator
    Member

    I have a friend whose built several 'magazine' cars, and although they're real lookers they're 10 footers for the most part - full of glass and bondo. Now that he's gotten his name in the mags a couple of times he's 'booked up' with work, so he's hired a couple of $10 an hour workers to keep up. His work's going downhill fast and I think it's just a matter of time until he has problems.

    I guess it comes down to the $$$ in the end.

    In the past I did all my own work but due to health problems I have to farm some of it out now. With one exception I've been extremely disappointed with all the work I've had done on any of my hot-rods recently. The exception was a Hamber's (borntoolate) Dad Ray Eller, a real craftsman who upholstered the seat in my '40.
     
  23. i work on machines that can only be fixed the correct way. seeing all the "hack fixes" on vehicles makes me glad i don't work on them for a living. and as for "keeping the painter doped up" it's becoming a sad reality. guess i'm gonna have to search out my old painters that mixed their whiskey in their coffee because at least they don't come back, break in your place and rip you off!
     
  24. junkyardjeff
    Joined: Jul 23, 2005
    Posts: 8,232

    junkyardjeff
    Member

    Alot of people wont pay for quality work,you would not believe what they want patched up.
     
  25. johny1i
    Joined: Jan 17, 2006
    Posts: 28

    johny1i
    Member

     
  26. torchmann
    Joined: Feb 26, 2009
    Posts: 787

    torchmann
    BANNED
    from Omaha, Ne

    Ohboy, your bringing back memories...[​IMG]

    The 55 was in a rollover prior to my buying it as a first car. I had no idea how much bondo was under the paint but I squared the cab with jacks and 4x4's and beat out alot of the dents. it still needed alot of bondo coverage but hell it was a gonner to start with and I made it better (before I totalled it) regardless the fact it wasn't "done right". I was working in the bodyshops at the time and had acess to some materials but still had to do it at home with hand tools.

    [​IMG]

    This truck, I didn't get around to stripping and painting and thus it rusted out below. It got to the point to where the metal was rusted out past where patches would cover. In an act of preservation I cleaned the scale with a 36 grit in a 6" pistol grinder, taped the holes over, filled the rockers and cab supports with foam trimming it flush after it set, fiberglassed everything then undercoated it. It was a throwaway cab by that time and it acomplished the job of stopping the water from getting in and making it worse and keeping the winter air out. not everyone is out to win a trophy and what would be considered scab work at a car show is just fine for getting to work.
    The only way to "do it right" would have been to put on a rust free cab because even the best patch jobs are still patch jobs and it's only new once.
     
  27. torchmann
    Joined: Feb 26, 2009
    Posts: 787

    torchmann
    BANNED
    from Omaha, Ne

    It takes just as long to do something well as it does to do it poorly.
     
  28. triplexkustoms
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 327

    triplexkustoms
    Member

    I don't mind paying for true craftsmanship. I had an off topic grill I took down to Mazdaslam's shop and they made it straighter than Ford did. I can't wait till I can have him do some chopping for me.

    I guess I'm lucky working at a shop where my boss wants it done properly all the time regaurdless of how much time it takes.
     
  29. Richard Head
    Joined: Feb 19, 2005
    Posts: 526

    Richard Head
    Member

     
  30. junkyardjeff
    Joined: Jul 23, 2005
    Posts: 8,232

    junkyardjeff
    Member

    Right now I am doing body and paint on my 66 F250 shop truck and there is somethings on it that I am not going to repair,alot have told me I should have left the patina on it but I want it to look a little better. Since its going to be a work truck I am not going to spend the time to make it a show truck since it will get scratched up again,there is going to be one spot where the bondo is going to be 1/4 inch thick but its behind the front bumper. There is no way I can afford to pay someone to do it so I will do it the best I can and my vehicles are usually 20 footers since I am not a expert in body work.
     

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