Craftsmanship...who really cares?

It might just be me or my car venue (mostly restoration), but I've seen some of the most shameful, disrespectful, and outright hack fuckin work lately and it makes me sick. Maybe I'm an elite-minded-nothing's-ever-good-enough sort, maybe not. Body work especially. Holy fuckin mud Batman! Even on the slack assed TV shows they say that frosting the car with mud and sanding it down is the way to go!??! Had a car in the shop done by some previous workers where the finish (if you can call it that) was TWO TIMES THE THICKNESS OF THE SHEETMETAL! The owner was wondering why his paint was cracking and peeling like old shelf paper. We stripped and refinished the hood and found...NO DAMAGE AND A PERFECT HOOD! Not a dent or a wave and the finish on it was so thick the center body line was GONE! That's just that one. An OT car also thick like the glaze on a honeybun.

I gotta wonder what motivates someone to do such slop. I have a very rare car in my personal shop as well that not just the finish but EVERYTHING that was touched is beyond hack. Wiring, plumbing, an electric fuel pump installed backwards (!), and kick panels that are held on with VELCRO!! On a rare and 1of 1 example of a very desireable car, unique in it's appointments and options. Worked on an inline flathead 8 that had helicoils in the block. I think Stevie Wonder put em in. Like one of my star workers observed "...those studs look like a grove of xmas trees...".

I don't get it. I see so many quality executions here on our board but I also see some shit that I can't believe is even remotely good enough to use in any way. I know ya can't save em all but where have all the perfectionists gone? In fact, fuck perfection, where's the common sense? Where's the pride and respect for the craft?

I see and to some degree understand the underlying disdain for ultimate show cars here on the board sometimes. I get it. I know everyone doesn't want a Riddler winner or a Pebble Beach 'Best of Show' but that's no excuse. The shit-bondo-hurry up-slacker lookin work is spreading like a cancer. Where is this coming from? Doing things right is so fuckin easy and fast. We have the 'net for research. Schools teach good metal practice. New products can net easier and better results. Cost? Quality costs less and secures the investment for many years so that makes it a bargain in the long haul. Like I started out sayin, maybe it's just me. I can't believe it is, but perhaps it just bothers me more? Lately I just paraphrase Jeff Spicoli and say "people on 'ludes should not work on cars..." but in some cases 'ludes might help. Sorry for the rant, but if quality work makes me an elitist asshole then I'm proud to be just that. Anyone else seeing more of this lately?

 

I believe it has always been this way. I have always done my own work to the best of my ability and been happy. Nothing could be more horrible and wallet destroying than paying a pro for work that doesn't even meet my own amateur standard! So I just never have.

 

i am with ya brother. i love watching car shows on cable,but now everyone thinks a car can be built in 2-4 weeks. i'm shure it can be done if you have 50 people working on it around the clock, but even a good size shop doesn't stand a chance.

-danny

 

i think that almost everyone has lost the skill to dosomething right.our society has lost the will to take the time to do a good job at almost everything.most bodyshop guys dont really know how to fix body panels because it is easer to buy new ones from china!!new construction homes are horrable there is nothing straight or square in them.most people just say its good enough or im not getting paid to do it perfect{if there is such a thing}its all about how much you can do in a day and not how good of a job you did.i just dont get it!!!there is no pride in work anymore.i have some friends in the union and its all about how much money you can make for the least amount of work.

 

Not everyone can afford a perfectionist and work up to their ability. To me, that's what it's all about. Giving it a go. Maybe you don't get it just right off the bat. Give it a better go the next time.

 

Several of the most talented bodymen I've met, and by talented I mean TALENTED.......well let's just say you wanted their substance of choice to be plentiful when your car was underway. If they're out, your job sucks. So I might actually go the opposite direction of Spicoli.

It's not a career that attracts people afraid of chemicals.

 

I have to say ,,this so called "skim coat" thing,, I just don't get it,,, Cover the whole panel then sand it down ??? wtf Double work,,waste of materials,,what happend to finding the highs and lows circling them and then doing the work ?

but then the world has changed so much ,,maybe im just getting old

 

You stated it and it's already been quoted so I'll just give it a thumbs up. I occasionally do chassis work for a high end rod shop and I can't believe the junk that people bring in there that's been worked on by other shops and wanting finish work done. The owner just politely tells them that he is not interested in working over someone elses work and sends them on their way. The look on their faces is classic, like my friend should be honored to even have their project in his shop. When you have work backed up for a year and people calling every day you can't afford to have your name on a POS.

Frank

 

What really offends me is the crap that builders defend as "traditional". Most car clubs in the fifties and sixties had an inspection process before a guy could join the club. Maybe that's why a lot of HAMB'ers have an aversion to car clubs because the stuff they built would have never made it in a "traditional" car club!

 

Boy do I agree on this one.

 

Some people are just not that bright.And also alot of guys are afraid of bodywork.Which I don't understand.Some people don't have patience and others just don't care.And just want to be part of the crowd your so called -at rods.

 

It's only ONE thing that it comes down to:

MONEY!

Simple as that. Most people in the biz are there to make money. They want to get the cars done ASAP, and charge as much as they can. They want to pay good workers sub-standard wages, so the owner can keep more. Good ones leave, and they replace them with underqualified ones, due to the pay scale.
Also today, why should "kids" want to learn how to do this stuff? It's hard, dirty work that takes years to become proficient at. Why not just sit at a desk and work a keyboard, or a cell phone, and make 4 times as much as a TRUE craftsman??????
Sorry if I'm feeling a little bitter about all this, I've been doing it for many years, and a lot of times, you put your heart and soul, and blood and sweat into a customer's car, and get nothing but inadequate pay. No appreciation, just nitpicking of your work....AND even complaining about things you had NOTHING to do with! It's very disheartening, when you're trying to do your best, and often come up with some pretty nice cars.
I can see how business owners get disgusted with most customers (NOT all, mind you!) and just decide to run it out for the almighty dollar! Just take then for all their worth, so to speak.
On the other hand, doing it as a hobby, I have the luxury of picking my work, and doing a good job, even if I don't charge the customer full boat for it, as I often do. It just hurts when it backfires on you!
My friends and customer know what I'm talking about, so I apologize to you guys who don't, I don't want to name names. Seems every few years, you get a bad apple.

End of rant...for the bright side:
But, you also get to meet good people in this hobby, lifelong friends, too! I was lucky enough to know Vic Collins, who graced me with helping him build the Kopper Kart in my shop. The guys who came in and helped will always be gret friends, wherever they are!

 

I actually think the craftsmanship has improved over the years partly due to the hot rodders. In the 60-70s the antique shows were where we went for parts. My buddy used to joke about the fit and finish of the 'tiques in the show field when compared to our hot rods. Fenders that look like a bag of walnuts and 1/4 panels that waved good bye.

Like everything else it's a compromise that the owner builder has to be able to live with. A state of the art quality car from a 70s build would be considered a cruise night quality car today.

It's one of those opinion questions that has no "correct answer".

The "RR" cars have lowered the standards of fit and finish on purpose.

 

I guess it's the way of what we have become, today people want everything done by yesterday at the least amount of cost.. you can't have it both ways. as an OT, I worked with a guy who flipped houses, i quit because some of the other workers were literally hacks. Can you imagine connecting electrical wires between studs with wire ties and black tape?? yet the poor slob who walks in and sees the "finished product" has no idea what's under the drywall or in automotive terms under the paint. Yet he feels he got a bargain for his money. I agree with Pasedinahotrod, unless I had to get into a service panel , I did all my own work

 

Having a long background in the auto body business, I can clear this up very quickly.

In an ethically run shop, it's a matter of economics. There just aren't enough gold chainers to go around.

The cost to establish, equip, insure and maintain a shop these days is enormous...to say nothing of the variable costs like labor and materials.

These costs must be broken down into an hourly rate which will cover all costs and leave a little something for the owner at the end of the week. That's just how business works.

When there isn't enough business to cover the costs, much less provide even a modest profit, the owner looks for ways to cut corners in order to stay in business. This is also how business works. It has nothing at all to do with what he wants to do, it is all about what he has to do.

You may like it, or you may not, but until the amount of disposable income among car enthusiasts increases, the quality of workmanship will continue to be compromised.

It's easy to be a prima donna and bitch about poor workmanship, but if you're not willing to pay the freight for high class work, you're gonna continue to get what you do pay for.

Please note: if the owner is greedy, unethical or putting part of the operating capitol up his nose, all bets are off. Run, don't walk, away from that shop. All normal rules of business will not apply, so best to do your homework and shop elsewhere.

 

These TV "build shows" have really jacked up people's expectations of how long it REALLY takes to build a car, that's for sure! Like was said earlier, if a guy has 50 people devoted to building one car at a time; yeah, a couple of weeks might work! Might. With their contrived "deadlines" and such, it's all simply TV! I don't know anyone that has had a car built on Foose's "Overhaulin'!" show, but I'd be very curious to see how any of those vehicles actually turned out, up close. How do they look two years later? Was the overall build quality worth a crap or not? These are things you never see, only the finished product!

By the same token, there is absolutely NO excuse for someone to wait YEARS for a shop to complete work, none whatsoever! I had THREE shops on my upholstery in one car I have, and none were really worth a shit. I spent a lot of money for three different people in three different shops, for them to sniff their upholstery glue all day and work on the car, seemingly only when I was personally there to supervise - otherwise, they did not touch my car, apparently! And believe me, when someone asks who did the "work", I do not hesitate to say. The saying "A happy customer tells five people that he is happy...An unhappy customer tells everyone! And why!" If I knew how to do upholstery work (I seriously doubt anyone here does ALL of their own work!), then I'd have done it, believe me!

 

Heres my take on this post. Theres a guy here in town, FAB32 knows him, that calls EVERYONES work is hack or cobb unless he did it then its tits. So when I read something like this I automatically discount it. I would bet some asshole some where is calling something you did a "hack" job, just seems to go with this hobby. Bottom line is the only person you have to make happy is you. I really hate to hear other people denegrate each others efforts. My dad always tought me if you don't have something good to say dont say anything at all.

 

I have to agree with highlander.

Bondo does not cure cancer and it is not some magical cure by no means.Were killing these cars with a slow death.There getting to the point it will take a professional coach-builder to bring them back to life.You use to be able to pick up little coupe body's for a thousand and now you will be lucky to find one for ten thousand.This is because they are disappearing.We need to preserve them so are kids and their kids will be able to enjoy these cars.

So if you pick one up and it has rust cut it out and replace it.There are techniques to do the job better.I think most people have a hard time welding the panels in.Read about it and learn how to weld it in correctly so it doesn't warp all to hell on you.

A lot of company's are making re-placement panels but if you can not find what you are looking for ask for help,try http://www.allmetalshaping.com/ or http://www.metalmeet.com/ also try http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/cfdirectory.cgi.

 

I am in the same boat man. The BEST bodyman I ever saw was heavily addicted to meth. When this dude was up he worked for days and his work was PERFECT! When he came down he was gone for days and days. I made sure I kept his pockets full of a couple bens while he was workin on my stuff. Quite a shame it is. After the dude finished my 63 he left his wife and headed to Yosemite to climb rocks (his real passion). Never saw or heard of him again.

 

I think a lot of you guys will enjoy what John Ruskin was saying about this subject 150 years ago. Some good stuff there.

 

*****bingo******

 

This statement hit the nail on the head for me,I do auto upholstery and take my time to do a real nice job as I dont want it coming back for repairs since word of mouth advertising is the best. I done a vinyl top on a very nice off topic 80 caddy eldorado that had original paint that was starting to go bad,he looked it over for over 45 minutes to find every liitle thing he could find wrong and found a coupe small things so I fixed it the next day and he did the same when he came back to pick it up. He found flaws in the paint no where near the area I was working and then came back a couple weeks later with more things wrong where I never touched it and it almost made me quit right there on the spot and get out of this line of work,in all my 23 years of doing this I never seen a person who tried to find something wrong with what I done like that before and definately wont do any more work for him in the future.


Sorry if I'm feeling a little bitter about all this, I've been doing it for many years, and a lot of times, you put your heart and soul, and blood and sweat into a customer's car, and get nothing but inadequate pay. No appreciation, just nitpicking of your work....AND even complaining about things you had NOTHING to do with! It's very disheartening, when you're trying to do your best, and often come up with some pretty nice cars.
I can see how business owners get disgusted with most customers (NOT all, mind you!) and just decide to run it out for the almighty dollar! Just take then for all their worth, so to speak.

 

Who here is willing to pay $60+ an hour?

We're living in a WalMart world.

 

OK let me start by saying that I for one am not a perfectonist. I mean lest face it I am and always have been the king of really fast motor and whatever body is available. But what I do I do well, it has to be perfect when you open the hood.

Now past that I truely understand where you are comming from Highlander. Mud has its place but it is not an artistic medium. If you can't beat a panel find someone who can. If your current way to make a living is beating panels and you are not capable, then maybe you should just get a job.

OK now I have ranted a bit.

Carry on.

 

I agree with you coupster,. The premise that the Hotrod hobby is/shold be/ever was/ever will be, governed by "perfectionists" , "professional builders", "restoration shops", is lame.

The guy that has to convince me of how much a perfectionist he is by pointing out other people's work might be right, on a technical level, but is showing how much of an egomaniac he is on another level, to use that to bloster his premise. Acting like a snot-nosed bully to criticize other peoples handiwok shows them for what they are. It's selfserving. It don't fix anything. It simply uses other people to make one feel good about himself.

What mystifies me is a person that claims to be a perfectionist on one hand but presumes on the other that his way is superior to somebody else that enjoys his hobby and simply gets it done to his satisfaction, notwithstanding what other people think. Psychology wise, many of these people are just trying to prove themselves and their superior feeling about themselves. When there is no apparent objective, save make somebody else look bac, that irritates me.
There is no perfect paint job and the existence of bondo substrait neither contributes or detracts from the finished surface. The existence of inclusions in a weld neither detracts or contributes to the general ‘perfection‘ of a car‘s appearance or performance, when so-self-designated ’perfectionists’ grind them smooth, taking away strength in trade for ’look’. That’s fucked up logic to me.
Of course there are people that don’t even drive the car because then the exhaust would be dirty, the brake discs would be scored, the tire tread would be scuffed. They profess to be perfectionists. They look down their noses at us riff-raff Hotrodders. Of course those people exist. Of course they have a right to think they do. And, of course, they ain’t traditional hot rodders, in any stretch of the imagination and their hoity-toity ‘holier than thou‘ attitude is misguided.

Perfectionists can rant about my, and other people's substandard shit all day, have that self-bolstering ego trip, but get this, it bores me to hear it. Perfect shit is jewelry, watches, brain surgery, not Hotrods.

Give me a break. Give yourself a break. Give everybody a break.

 

There are a lot of people building stuff that honestly shouldn't be doing it at all. Rat rods are a fad and we are a society obsessed with fads. Most of these people would call almost everything on this board a rat rod because they just don't know any better.
If everybody's work was top notch, then there would be no BASS's and the like that floor you when you see their high quality work.

My point is the slop artists exist so you have something to laugh at at shows and so you can truly be impressed by a real piece of art.

 

I have cars come in to my place that someone eles has put in a floor or trunk pan and who ever done the work did not even cut out the bad thay just lay the new part over the bad one spot weld it in 4 or5 places and cover it in mudd when i tell the owner about it i am told thay have to much $$ in it to fix it right really pisses me off that others get paid to do crap work and i fight to do it right

 

I have to agree, I won't let anyone else work on my car,any of my cars, because there is so much crap work out there now. You ought to see the alarm install on my wifes 98 civic, put in before we got the car, and it has a tag saying it was done at Best Buy, i pulled the dash panel and the entire mess FELL OUT. they didn't even anchor the modules in place,shoved them and the wires behind the dash. Im super picky, thats why i've spent so much time working on my off topic car, may take me a long time to finish it,but it will be right when i'm done. As far as Bondo, I hate the stuff, i have some very thin skim areas in my car, but nothing more then a 1/32 thick. and those are very small areas. lots of metal work to remove the damage, but it was worth it.

 

I with you Highlander! My pet peve is welding rusty crusty shit together. I've made a huge part of my income restoring cars that have already been "finished".
I see it far to often right here on this board. If and when I comment, ten guys post slapping the guy on the back for the great job he's doing. When the car rusts out in two or three years, then it's the bodyman that sucks. Hell it's all bodymen that suck.

Thanks for letting me rant with you!, Now I'm off to build a new floor, for a truck cab that is off the frame, It will be expensive, but it will out last me. There are a few guys left out there that understand the value of quality. Thankfully I don't do much of this anymore. These owners are getting to be few and far between.

 

I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from BUT I agree with some and disagree too . That is my idea and choice on this whole thing . The TV has made it bad on the working stiffs BUT Foose will tell you that all cars can't be done in a week with all the help all the time . Things go wrong and will set you back big time ! That car is not the only car in the shop to work on so some sit while others get worked on . I think that might be some of the problems with how a car will turn out . Many time in a bigger shop with 15+ people working there , you might have 10 of them working on the same thing at one time or another . I think one person should finish the job he or she started . Then maybe the work would be a little better but like you said before , " Everyone wants their ride a show stopper yesterday for less than the parts cost alone !
As for unions , they had their place 45 years ago but not today !
Now as for how the project turns out and where is the pride and so on , well I am doing my own car because I can't afford to pay anyone because I am poor ! I do the work myself to the best of my ability and that is that . If I am happy with how it turns out then fine . As long as it's safe to drive , then go out and have fun driving it ! What really pisses me off it when I am at a show with or without my car , I can't stand and have no respect for these fuckin' assholes that go by every car and nit pick it to death with nothing good to say about it at all ! Most don't even have a car to drive ! When I am at a show or see a older car I am always stopping to look at it and talk with the owner and I always say something nice about their car . It's their pride and joy no matter what it looks like !
As for the junk yard RR's they have disgrace OUR TRADITIONAL Hot Rods ! People think you either have a Street rod or a RR ! Where the hell does this shit stop ? When people ask what I am making I always tel the , " I am building an Ol Skool Hot rod ! " Just like what a kid would have had back in the 50's or 60's in high skool !
Well I have said enough and pissed enough people off but that's me . I love all hot rods good or bad and they all start someplace . As for the rusted shit that people try to stick more barb wire and dangerous things on , the next time you see one ask them where the tag is that makes them legal to drive on the street ? They are mostly towed to cars shows anyway !

Look have fun with your hot rod no matter what the paint job or body wrinkles look like ! We are all here to have some good ol fun ! Just do the best you can and enjoy the thrill of the whole thing !

RetroJim