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Hot Rods Cowl Steering . . . just stop !

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Pete Eastwood, Mar 18, 2018.

  1. With no weight on the wheels I can't detect any axle flex until the spindles hit the steering stops which is about the same as having the wheels bound.

    The rolling resistance against spindle rotation will be less than static but I don't have any data for how much less that includes the excessive scrub angle shown. I know positive scrub angle increases rolling resistance and the tendancies to want to toe the wheels out when headed straight ahead.

    Again here is the arc fight drawn up full size and to scale with a tape measure at 2" up suspension travel, the horizontal lines are 1" from center of the arcs.
    Keep this in mind when looking at it.
    The car was in my customers hands.
    I have it back here for a go over and smashed oil pan <<<< hell of a bounce.
    My zip tie max upwards suspension travel indicator came back to me at 2".
    Point S moves 3/8" (3/4" total) from center before the spindle rotate sitting static.
    The car does not display any bad manners or bump steer issue or complaints.
    Theoretically it should display that bump steer loud and clear ( why not)
    Im not saying it's fine, it's good or justification. I believe there is another issue, possibly worse that's masking the bump steer. I'm also wondering if the other cowl steering examples that present without bump steer issue also have that same "possibly worse issue."
    There has to be an explanation for this parallax that goes against basic geometry for those who are not idiots or delusional.
    The physics is there, but it's not where it's expected
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
    gimpyshotrods likes this.
  2. Johnny Gee
    Joined: Dec 3, 2009
    Posts: 10,763

    Johnny Gee
    from Downey, Ca

    Galileo would be proud
    31Vicky with a hemi, Hnstray and X38 like this.
  3. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 902

    from Miami, FL

    This is a nice solution. Keeps the benefits of cowl steering (foot room) but also achieves the most desirable geometry.

    @Pete Eastwood, what do you think of this setup?
    ls1yj and 31Vicky with a hemi like this.
  4. Galileo was an astronomer sentenced to prison and had the sentence commuted to house arrest in 1633. He died under house arrest in 1642. He was later apologized to and vindicated in 1992. That picture is an attempt to explain retrograde motion. That's all in relation geocentric beliefs. I don't see how that relates to cowl steering fuck ups.

    leonardo da Vinci is who you want to talk to
  5. X2
  6. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,326

    from Quincy, IL

    But.......but.....Galileo put ‘affordable’ wine within reach of the peasantry!

    Give the man some respect! :D

    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  7. cracker head
    Joined: Oct 7, 2007
    Posts: 968

    cracker head

    7 pages...... this thread is funny.
    Pwood thanks for the info. Good stuff.
    KKrod likes this.
  8. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,804

    seb fontana
    from ct

    Some times an accumulation of error adds up to none..
  9. fourspd2quad
    Joined: Jul 6, 2006
    Posts: 858


    Awesome thread tons of great info. Funny that nobody mentioned split bones themselves being geometrically incorrect....just sayin'... ;)
    Montana1 likes this.
  10. Pete Eastwood
    Joined: Jul 27, 2011
    Posts: 1,238

    Pete Eastwood
    from california

    Hey, come on, one thing at a time,
    as it is, heads are already exploding !
  11. Pete Eastwood
    Joined: Jul 27, 2011
    Posts: 1,238

    Pete Eastwood
    from california

    First time I've been called " an axe wheeling persona "
    ( actually it 'wielding' not "wheeling" )
  12. Wish I thought of that statement.
    I'm gonna save it though
    Hnstray likes this.
  13. Holy craptacularness that's funny
    I don't care who's who
  14. Or a mustang box not being “traditional”
  15. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 3,298

    from b.c.

    And for me the most amusing thing about poor steering is all the geometry could be corrected by checking it with a string....
    Toe in, Ackerman, roll center, moment all down the a string.
    gimpyshotrods and trollst like this.
  16. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 4,006

    from Colorado

    Since my last post #35, I've bounced on the front end and there is little if any steering wheel movement. Weight distribution on this car is almost 50/50 and I've used it on hill climbs and twisty roads with no apparent bump steer. I'm not qualified to debate the issue and I've had cars with bump steer that were horrible handling beasts. Just saying that this one works for me.
  17. trollst
    Joined: Jan 27, 2012
    Posts: 2,092


    Yeah, I can see this going away, thanks loads pete.
  18. toreadorxlt
    Joined: Feb 27, 2008
    Posts: 733

    from Nashua, NH

    Pete I didn’t sense any hate from you. I think some egos got hurt? You were tactful in my eyes.

    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
    ratrodrodder, brEad, Blues4U and 2 others like this.
  19. Torana68
    Joined: Jan 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,360

    from Australia

    Yeah that was dumb I see knowledge and someone who cares , keep at it
  20. Uncle Ronn
    Joined: Mar 23, 2015
    Posts: 83

    Uncle Ronn
    from Modesto CA

    I believe the Doane Spencer Roadster was the first car I had ever seen with cowl steering.

    This was probably very late 70's Western Nationals. I was 11 or 12 .

    To me personally this really is the biggest distraction on an otherwise perfect car. The left side is the bad side.

    I guess I just don't really get this trend.

    Hey , I would never change a thing about this car, I love that Bruce Meyer makes it so available for everyone to enjoy, and the cowl steering is a very distinct feature of this car, and it should inspire others I guess.

    Just my thoughts,
  21. 340HilbornDuster
    Joined: Nov 14, 2011
    Posts: 1,969


    Well...If it works on a IndyRacer...(throttle Steering?)
    Some a them had a link on each side...
    These guys obviously didn't know what they're doing?
    ....AND it fricken Looks Racing Cool![​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Sent from my SM-G930V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
    Tman and hendelec like this.
  22. Uncle Ronn
    Joined: Mar 23, 2015
    Posts: 83

    Uncle Ronn
    from Modesto CA

    That's what I said, My opinion.
  23. This was a good thread with much info passed on from people who do know what they're talking about.
    Unfortunately it's been fucked up by shit birds.
    Some of you need to go see if your mom will kick you in the stomach hard enough to pop your head out of your ass.
    zzford, Atwater Mike, lilmann and 7 others like this.
  24. 31Apickup
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,097


    If you're going to keep it on the oval track and not drive it on the street then go ahead. One of the only hot rods I've seen with cowl steering was the Doane Spencer roadster besides race cars, so I don't know how it became so called "traditional". Great job Pete with the explanations.
    Andy, Uncle Ronn and lurker mick like this.
  25. Pete Eastwood
    Joined: Jul 27, 2011
    Posts: 1,238

    Pete Eastwood
    from california

    1959 Pete Schmit.jpg

    Yes, cowl steering & hairpins.
    different geometry ( the same only different )
    If you can see the difference you'll get it. I don't expect everyone to understand.
    You know that on many of these Indy cars, the batwing on one side floated on a swivel around the axle, changing the imput of the geometry.
    The red car is a "Kusma" Chassis
    I restored the 1959 "Peter Schmit" special ( above ), which is a twin to this car.

    doanespencer.jpg indy car 56.jpg Kusma indy car.jpg
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  26. Pete Eastwood
    Joined: Jul 27, 2011
    Posts: 1,238

    Pete Eastwood
    from california

    I've had enough
    You guys figure it out ................
  27. Kerrynzl
    Joined: Jun 20, 2010
    Posts: 2,474


    Pete..... You're created the best "Dog and Pony Show" thread on the HAMB.
    If I started a thread like this, I probably would've got beaten down with the "Ban Hammer"

    Now all we need is the laws of physics to be re-written so others can justify their misinformed decisions from the past.
    I take my hat off to you, and agree 100% with what you're trying to teach here [yes ,it is a lesson!]
    Geometry is geometry
    Ned Ludd and Andy like this.
  28. Apart from off topic posts,I say thank you Mr Eastwood,like any good teacher,you got me thinking!
    I am mounting cowl Steering at the moment on my car,now I’m thinking should I or shouldn’t I,thinking how to or how not to.I thought I had it sorted but now I realise how wrong I was.
    Thanks for making me rethink it! I still want to run with it,as correct as possible.No,not because it’s fashionable,I have clearance issues and I also happen to like the look of it!
    Thanks again
    ls1yj and j hansen like this.
  29. GeeRam
    Joined: Jun 9, 2007
    Posts: 484


    Well, I'd personally think to thank such a legend of hot rodding for this 'how to' and 'how not to' thread.
    AmishMike, 30tudor and Blues4U like this.
  30. apparently I missed some stuff here.
    Thanks Pete

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