Hot Rods Cowl Steering . . . just stop !

Yes,Pete E is 100% right ! I see even big name shops making a mess out of steering. Being big,dosen't mean they really know engineering. Like the old saying goes,stupid dose not know they are stupid!/to blunt but on point.

What has always shock me,is how many try to defend there mistakes,in most of those cases,they actully just have none or very small idea of how front end geometry works. Many times these same owner or builder will say there set-up of cowel steering{one that is wrong} works just fine{ to them,its not a lie,but the fact that they have not driven a cowel steering rod that is designed right/so have not felt good driving hotrod=that adds up too,they think there set up drives OK<even though its got a lot of bump,they think thats how hot rods feel! Added to that few will addmit being wrong,even with facts infront of them. How do you tell them,there experience is too limited,an yes to them it works even if wrong? The word experience should be enough,but driving in a good set up is mostly,the only way,even then the driver sometimes will not admit what he feels.
Well,I've been building hotrods a fairly long time,started in the 1950's,seen poorly designed cowel steering copyed over an over,manytimes just as and old photo had it that way{idea being,it worked then,must be OK} ; Hotrods to me was never to copy bad engineering,but learn what was good an even be better.

**Now there is something that also sucks about most cowel steering {be side looks bad to those that know better} is many make a longer then stock to the box pitmen arm ! Doing so is another engineering mistake,as that multiplys {X} any play in box to a greater amount then it was,even just 1in.{about the most that can be adjusted for} can add to steering wheel play before anything happens at front wheels.
Bad Ackermen being wrong and tire out set from kingpin,are some of the things also often mest up bad/yet the driver will not admit it drives like crap. Has too little experience with thing being right,so in his head,its fine. {Not]

 

I've been driving this car for 10 years and have never had a problem, I'm good with it.

 

You want cowl steering that has minimal bump steer?
use drawing #2 or drawing #4
plug in your cowl steering components & have them mimic
those pick up points / lines & arcs & you'll be pretty good.
Of course there's more to it than that if you want it the very best it can be,
but that's the simplest way I can put it.

 

I'd still like to know the result of moving the front suspension up & down & watching its impact on steering wheel movement.
I think others would too, how else will we learn ?

 

Interesting topic, I'm learning a lot here. I have a question regarding the first picture in the Pete and Jake's diagram. This drawing is essentially what I have on my 34 in elevation view as drawn but in plan view (looking down from above) my steering differs cause I'm running an unsplilt wishbone.

Essentially stock setup but without stock relationships between points due to different year components being used.

I guess my question is does the method of diagraming the points and drawing the arc work the same with an unsplit wishbone?
Thank you.

 

Speedos. Once you get past the lack of pockets they make perfect sense.

 

This drawing is a chassis with parallel front springs. ( & looks wrong to me)
& That is not what we are dealing with here.
Cowl steering & split wishbones / hairpins is what this thread is about.

 

More or less . . .
Keep it as close to what Henry Ford did & you'll be good.

 

Thanks for the insight Pete I appreciate it.

 

I'M HOPING THAT THE MAJOITY KNOWS' WHO PETE EASTWOOD IS ?

 

Naw......just us old duffers.

 

Ha! They have NO if any idea. One said, "Oh, your name was on the Model A sedan?"
Model A sedan???
Pete Eastwood goes back in vintage (antique) race cars years before Pete & Jake ever recruited him to fabricate prototype suspension parts (and 'Newstalgic' suspension designs) for them.
P-Wood stands on his own.

 

Speedo's . . . hmmmm . . . .

 

"I've been driving this car for 10 years and have never had a problem, I'm good with it." or "My own works fine,but all wrong by this info,so why dose it work?" <<<If you think these things,need to reread more. But here is more info;


I'm sure it's ture for you,and same thinking of others with poor engineering they think works for them.
This is also ture,if your's is only off by a small amount,you getway AOK,or your luckyer then you know.
Real world;;
Most of the engineer misstakes don't show up as bad,tell the car is in a panic driving situation{thank God its not often}; Bump steer in that panic*,can make things much more out of control,and if you do save it,from hitting anything? Well likely you will not know why it was so out of control!
Why;hit a bad pothole or bump when in a turn,even if its just avoiding something that you did not see in time. Takes away your control input to save your self,being the wheels are pointed somewere other then you tryed to. Point is driving down the road you feel incontrol,its those unplaned things that can wreck you. Thats when good engineering can make you save you,has nothing to do with driving 1000's of miles an being lucky. The hardist head about this stuff,can't save you,if you only need to miss something buy 1/4in. but hit it!!!

 

A little on Hamber @Pete Eastwood
and glad to be in this conversation to glean a little...
and be amongst the rest of you Hambers as well
Thank you...



https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/pete-eastwood.13577/

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/eastwood-barakat.585483/

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0903rc-pete-eastwood-blairs-speed-shop/

​

 

This thread has already skewed away from it's intentions a few times, so i will apologize in advance. However, i just had to chime in here. This is the exact same argument the motorcycle community has about proper Rake/Trail frame geometry in choppers. Some enthusiasts just don't care. Form>function for those people, and you can't talk them out of it. Hopefully, however, somewhere...... someone will see this and make the proper adjustments.

 

Just a mechanical prophet

 

Can we see the video of said 34 roadster?

 

WOW Pete!! You gave a lot of us an education and rattled a few cages. Thanks for this thread and we would like to hear more from you. I am going to jump on my coupe's front end to see if there are any problems. Did you get the letter I sent to you from Rick with a photo of VanAmburg's 26 coupe ? I'm off to the garage..........

 

Just finished jumping up and down on front spreader bar and NOTHING MOVED!!!!! Remember you built the narrowed 32 frame and Jim Jacobs set up the front suspension. THIS WAS IN THE EARLY 1980's. All I have done is replace all the suspension bushings about 3 years ago. Thanks for doing quality work!!! Now to reread this thread to learn more...........

 

Plays guitar for the Who, right?

 

I like Pete Eastwood.

 

left handed, upside down . . .

 

...and NOT in Speedos.

 

Dick not James I mean Johnny

 

Anyway, I have no desire for a car with cowl steering but this has been more interesting than many other threads.

Hopefully we might do it with other forms of steering noted.

 

Pre Cowl RHS.

 

No input, just drawings.. Red is Radius Arm arc, Black is Drag link arc. Your goal is to make the two of them similar through suspension travel. Its difficult with cowl steering in the positions that many mount it. These quick two mockups show a 1/4" difference in bump steer through a 4" range of motion with a simple angle change. Ideally the arc intersection is where the point of mid travel is on the suspension, to balance the effects of bumpsteer. these do no represent that for ease of dimensioning.Either way... every way I quickly mocked it up ended up in an Inch plus of steering input through 4"

 

Thank you "toreadorxlt"
This drawing is incorrect & I'm not picking on "toreadorxlt"
This drawing has the basic mistake most people make.
This is where things go wrong.
The radius arm arc should swing through the forward draglink point / not through the center of the axle as shown.
"toreadorxlt" can you re-draw it that way ?
With the corrected drawing it will show an even worse arc fight.
If I knew how to do these illustrations , I would ! ( hey, I'm a welder )