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Hot Rods Cowl Steering . . . just stop !

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Pete Eastwood, Mar 18, 2018.

  1. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 3,487

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    959F80E4-AA45-4BA8-8C16-4A43B54C3A6B_1_201_a.jpeg

    If you look closely, there is a second hole on the pitman arm. I tell people that it is for adjustments. Truth is, we did it wrong the first time around!
     
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  2. Hemi Joel
    Joined: May 4, 2007
    Posts: 821

    Hemi Joel
    Member
    from Minnesota

    Wow, I never thought of it that way before. That's good stuff, it makes perfect sense. Although it contradicts what I had previously been told, I believe it and will use it should the need ever arise. Thanks!
     
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  3. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 5,753

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Awesome story.
    My friends sometimes look at me funny as I look up info on subjects like this. The reason is this. When I first started repairing wrecks, a shop nearby closed down. One of their been here done that expert techs centered the rack on a unibody car. He was used to everything being square on a car. He pulled the rack over until it’s mounts were center. The alignment guy adjusted the tie rods to center the tires Never noticed the length difference. Shop delivered the car. Car come right back with steering issues. Shop manager and car owner go for a test ride. Shop manager turns into a dump truck head on killing the owner. The steering geometry was screwed because 2 technicians just did it how they always did it.
    I tell this story to my students. Never get to the point you think you know everything.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  4. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,042

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    Seems a good place to bring this up since we're all on about steering, control, bump steer, etc. Some info I read says sway (anti-roll) bar in the rear and pnhard bar in the front. Some says the opposite. I tend to think sway bar in the front myself, that's where the weight most often is and where the best effect of "borrowing" load from the opposing side will do the most good. With a nice long panhard out back the desired effect of flatter cornering should be easily achieved. On senior series Packard models they added sway bars front and rear in the late 30s AND a panhard out back besides (with a cushion at one end of the panhard as well, nice...). That was all in the switch to their independent front suspension. So, in dealing with Henry's transverse spring systems, is there 1 way prefered over the other or simply dealer's choice? I'll close by saying I don't think the addition of either in either place will reduce or diminish the potential for failed geometry within the topic, just asking in the spirit of "...in addition to..." perhaps.
     
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  5. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 4,672

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Which axle gets a sway bar (anti-roll bar) depends on the handling characteristic of the car. A sway bar in front will reduce oversteer, a sway bar in back will reduce understeer.

    Panhard bars keep the axle centered. You shouldn't need on on an early Ford buggy spring chassis with the springs mounted in tension, because the tension should keep the axle centered, except on the front when side steering is used.
     
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  6. brsturges
    Joined: Oct 22, 2008
    Posts: 826

    brsturges
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Miami, FL

    I agree with this. But I have always wondered why Ford went with a panhard bar on the rear on the last few years of the banjo rear end (42-48). I know those rear ends were wider, so maybe the wider axle had a greater tendency to wander. Not to hijack the thread, but I figure a lot of the chassis geometry gurus are watching this thread. Does anybody know?
     
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  7. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 2,753

    Fordors
    Member

    I always thought the Panhard bar was added because the shackle bars were longer and the bushings had been changed to rubber, both of which could contribute to more sway.
     
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  8. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,042

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    My motivation here is about my car, a 39 tudor. I'm running some nice big 7.00s on a commercial 5 1/2" wide 5 wheels out back. At ride hgt I have a tight "2 fingers" distance from fender edge to tire. I like the look yet I imagine a freeway ramp at moderate speed with 4 people in the car. It might want to get too cozy with the sidewall in that scenario. As it is, unloaded, I can rock it side to side pretty hard and damn near hit the tire, hence my desrire to eliminate that dynamic. Frankly I don't imagine any adverse effect from adding one because I'm a fan of nice long panhards. The longer one can practically be the better the response. But why the front desire? Many years ago a friend had a street rod truck and got sick of how bad it leaned even on slow turns. It was a pro street kinda gig so narrow rear suspension surely aggravated the problem and I advised him we should just add a sway bar back to it. To him it was like magic and he said it never rode or handled that well in all the years he'd owned it. I thought it was obvious but was also impressed at how much we improved it in all driving conditions. His was a unique scenario insofar as he was running a BBC, a pickup, pro street shit, etc. Out back there was a really heavy duty diagonal link and served it's purpose well.

    Back to mine, I have a dropped axle and I think it will naturally shift a little extra load bias to the front suspension. Steering is stock box and proper dropped arms, I don't expect any untoward handling issues but think a sway bar is prudent. I've basically resigned myself to fabbing what I want as there's little to no out-of-the-box answers that seem to suit my needs, but hence my reasoning for brining it up. I have zero worries about the work involved other than time and effort vs return on "investment" in the way of gains. And yes, I know Henry's boys added a front sway bar in 40 and the rear panhard in the 42-8 variants. Too much thought? Over thinking it?
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
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  9. saltracer219
    Joined: Sep 23, 2006
    Posts: 749

    saltracer219
    Member

    If you are nunning a factory dropped beam axle you will gain about an inch of clearance om each side.
     
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  10. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,042

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    I'm running 6.00s on 3 1/2" wide 5s up front. I raised it up because of clearance issues on tight turns with the 6.00s. Still, a shift in forward weight bias is likely with a dropped axle and a front sway is my preference. Back to the question though, most set ups are rear sway, front panhard and I'm morbidly curious as to why this "appears to be" the norm. Again, I'm probably over thinking this and should just do what I plan to do but also though it might enlighten others in some of the front suspension/steering forces we're talking about here in this topic.

    And 7.00s up front would look sillyo_O
     
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  11. jaw22w
    Joined: Mar 2, 2013
    Posts: 1,017

    jaw22w
    Member
    from Indiana

    Putting a sway bar on the front will make a car understeer. I think the engineers at the factorys nowadays set a car up to understeer because when the average driver gets into an understeer condition all he has to do is let off the gas, and the car is back under control. When that driver gets into an oversteer condition, it is harder to get it back under control than the push. Gotta be elbows up on the wheel. So it is safer for the average driver if the car has an inherent understeer in the chassis.
    Sway bar on the rear will create oversteer. You can help tune a chassis for under or over steer by changing bar ratings.
    By the way panhard bars and sway bars have nothing to do with each other.
     
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  12. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,042

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    Right. Wrong. Maybe?

    To start this is the kind of chin music that helps, and in no way are opposing views unwelcome. I disagree to a point on a few things here. I'm well aware of the use panhard bars have. They either limit or control lateral forces which in turn can make load transfers in dynamic conditions more managable. For us hot rod guys it can help keep the fat tires from hitting fenders or 1/4 panels. For drag racers it can keep the axle centered. Sway (anti-roll) bars also help with load transfer forces, but they "borrow" load from the opposing spring to do it by forces induced in the opposite side (right turn, weight on the left, bar pulls down on the right as well) which then keeps the car flatter in turns. These simple bars do a lot. As to not having anything to do with each other, maybe. If the car is flat, has lateral force become more or less managable? Is the "work" neutralized by one or the other? Over/understeer set aside for a moment, I would think flatter cornering up front assisted by controlled lateral forces out back should make for a predictable and pleasant driving experience. Still, most parts packages sell the opposite for our early Ford mods.

    I also use the term load transfer because weight is always static. Weight transfer is one of those colloquialisms we've become accustomed to, like vacuum advance and the like. CG can change based on how loads are applied in certain chassis dynamics and the use of the right bars and management components can also make those changes preidictable. Rear anti-roll bars became popular among doorslammer drag cars in the 90s to help maintain equal loads on the rear tires at launch, steering be damned. Some also used panhard, wishbone or diagonal bars to manage lateral forces. I don't even wanna get into Watts links, sprint cars, road racers, etc. At the end of the day it's an old Ford with elegant farm implement underpinnings.
     
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