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Hot Rods Cowl Steering . . . just stop !

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Pete Eastwood, Mar 18, 2018.

  1. Danny Brown
    Joined: Apr 26, 2016
    Posts: 161

    Danny Brown

    BTW... I don't under stand why people want to argue about bump steer issues. I am almost 63, but I learned the term "bump steer" when I was about 14 years-old when I watched my friend's dad drive his T-bucket hot rod. I didn't understand the geometry, but I have associated the term "bump steer" with hot rod suspension/steering for nearly 50 years now.
     
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  2. Danny Brown
    Joined: Apr 26, 2016
    Posts: 161

    Danny Brown

    That appears to be an altered class dragster with a blown SBC. Only has to go straight until the turn off. Remember, most dragster are towed in the pits. Not all, but the quick ones usually are.
     
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  3. That is what they do here.
     
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  4. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,898

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Many folks here believe that their setup has no bump steer, when in reality the suspension is so stiff that it barely cycles, and largely cannot articulate.

    But hey, hot rods are supposed to ride like crap, right?
     
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  5. gdaddy
    Joined: Mar 6, 2010
    Posts: 172

    gdaddy
    Member
    from nw fl.

    well the reason I am here is to learn , I like the "learn something new every day" saying . of course I am old and broke down , just like my cars .
     
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  6. Nobey
    Joined: May 28, 2011
    Posts: 1,171

    Nobey
    Member

    upload_2018-7-8_14-54-52.png Wonder how this one handles? Maybe call them Bumpsters from now on...
     
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  7. Joe McGlynn
    Joined: Jul 14, 2016
    Posts: 80

    Joe McGlynn

    This is an interesting approach - using an intermediate bell crank to put the steering pivot in the right place. There is a lot of interesting stuff on this car -- it's pretty over the top.

    SEMA-Gold-Award-Winners-2017-16-of-20.jpg
     
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  8. Torana68
    Joined: Jan 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,222

    Torana68
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Australia

    Is it just me or would that car look a ton better without the steering junk ruining its lines?
     
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  9. Dino 64
    Joined: Jul 13, 2012
    Posts: 1,924

    Dino 64
    Member
    from Virginia

    And loose the giant front wheels and the split windshield, my 2cts


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  10. stanlow69
    Joined: Feb 21, 2010
    Posts: 5,010

    stanlow69
    Member
    from red oak

    He was talking about the red roadster posted above it.
     
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  11. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 5,092

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    I don't think geographical is the correct term here, it's all about geometry, not geography. But yes, the relationship between the wishbone/hairpin and the pitman arm/drag link connection is what is important, not so much where the box is mounted. However, placement of the steering box does play a part in this, because of the limitations of a steering box w/ pitman arm. You could theoretically mount the steering box up high on the cowel and use a real long pitman arm to get the drag link down next to the hairpin mount, and that would address the issue with bump steer; but a real long pitman arm causes other problems.
     
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  12. Torana68
    Joined: Jan 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,222

    Torana68
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Australia

    Yep but he’s right with the other thing, fashion is one thing being able to drive it is more important to me , trailer queens suck arse. (As does monkey see monkey do engineering)
     
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  13. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 32,131

    loudbang
    Member

    Well the link does kinda parallel the bars??

    side steer link.JPG

    side steer link1.JPG
     
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  14. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,219

    F&J
    Member

    What could be hiding behind the front wheel? (more bellcranks ? or what?)

    I am looking at the lower "pitman arm" angled way back with wheels straight......How can it steer "full right hand turn" like that?
    I'm not picking on the car or builder, just wanting to know how it can possibly steer full right??



    ......and just now, the red drag roadster just posted above, also looks like it can't steer to full left ??

    .

    .
     
  15. Mark Hysong
    Joined: Dec 4, 2016
    Posts: 28

    Mark Hysong
    Member

     
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  16. Mark Hysong
    Joined: Dec 4, 2016
    Posts: 28

    Mark Hysong
    Member

    I agree, my coupe has split bones with a parallel drag link. However the drag link is a bit longer but it steers just fine
     
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  17. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 5,092

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    I liken this common theme we see here, where people have rods with obvious issues that will certainly have bump steer, yet they don't notice it and claim it isn't there, I liken it to the motorcyclist who doesn't know about counter steering, and that includes most of them. Bear with me here, I think there is a connection.

    Motorcycles are single track machines, they only way a motorcycle turns is by leaning it. You lean a bike into a turn. You initiate that lean by steering the bars the opposite way that you want to go, this causes the bike to fall over the opposite way and begin to turn. The rider adjusts the amount of pressure on the bar to keep the bike at the angle it needs to be to negotiate the turn, and that's how a motorcycle goes around a corner. This is a universal truth with single track vehicles, to turn right you turn the bars to the left, and vice versa. What is interesting is that most riders don't even realize they are doing that, nobody told them to do that, they just learned to ride by trial and error and they just do it without even thinking about it; and if you mention it to them they will look at you strange and ask you what the hell you're talking about. Advanced riders understand countersteering, they understand the concept, they know what they are doing, and they practice it, every day. It is a vital skill for advanced riding, but to the average rider it is just something they do without notice.

    Same thing with the guys here who claim their car doesn't bump steer. They are subconsciously making adjustments for it when they drive without noticing they are even doing it, just as the motorcyclist is using countersteering to steer their bike without realizing what they are doing. The mind is making the adjustments and send signals to the arms & hands, and they all coordinate all without the driver even realizing what he is doing.

    That's my theory anyway....
     
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  18. a lot of truth there, counter steer happens only after a critical speed though. Before that critical speed it's counter balance.

    You see I ride a Roadglide with a fixed faring. I've lost track of how many guys who would consider themselves "seasoned" riders tell me they don't like the faring set up and do not like have the faring to not turn with them thru a turn. I used to say - " that's really funny because your fork mounted faring turns the opposite way of your bike. (I Get the Stink eye) that must :rolleyes:REALLY:rolleyes: bother you then- It's called counter steer, look it up and don't say to anyone what you just said to me ever again! Oh and don't watch the wheels go around while riding- you'll crash"

    Anymore I don't even bother to address similar comments.
    These guys take a MC endorsement test on a rented scooter so what can a guy who negotiated the same cone course on a full dresser tell them?




    On the bump steer issue, the geometry and the very nice clear animations don't lie. That perfect bump steer geometry NEEDS suspension travel to bump steer. Without movement it won't show any signs of bump steer to the driver.
     
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  19. silent rick
    Joined: Nov 7, 2002
    Posts: 4,117

    silent rick
    Member

    compromises. stiff suspension, let a little air out of the tires with long, split wishbones and draglink all help to reduce the effect of bump steer. i didn't say eliminate, i said reduce. you look at pete's drawing and it looks like the car in that example has 10-12 inches of suspension travel. well yeah, in that case you will have noticable bump steer. nobody is denying bump steer. in a lot of cases, it's minimal or has become acceptable and is not the lane changing death trap pete makes it out to be.
    to make such a blanket accusation based on geometry without knowing anything about the car or how it rides is going a bit overboard. it might be time to turn our attention to single reservoir master cylinders, drum brakes, bias plys...
     
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  20. Pete Eastwood
    Joined: Jul 27, 2011
    Posts: 983

    Pete Eastwood
    Member
    from california

    "Silent Rick"
    "lane changing death trap" Your words . . . not mine.
    Read post # 1, I'm just pointing out poor steering geometry
     
  21. stanlow69
    Joined: Feb 21, 2010
    Posts: 5,010

    stanlow69
    Member
    from red oak

    When you are a professional in your field, you know when something is wrong just by looking at it.
     
  22. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,755

    anthony myrick
    Member

    I don’t really like the true cowl steering look
    I like the stock mounted style or mustang box better

    Do I have to leave now?
     
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  23. 392
    Joined: Feb 27, 2007
    Posts: 1,193

    392
    Member

    I’m guessing that the guys that do have are trying to convince themselves that it’s ok. Pete’s first post and the tech ones after are good reads. P&J catalog as stated and the Slovers will never fill your head with bs. Great people with tons of knowledge just like Pete.
     
  24. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,649

    The37Kid
    Member

    How about INDY Car steering? Chain & sprocket 1915 with Louis Chevrolet doing the driving. He lasted longer than a Delage, Bugatti and two Mercers, a bad valve put him out of the race.
    [​IMG]
    Bob
     
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  25. ago
    Joined: Oct 12, 2005
    Posts: 2,199

    ago
    Member
    from pgh. pa.

    Above! tires and wheels look like they came off a bicycle.
     
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  26. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,755

    anthony myrick
    Member

    is that an IFS setup?
    it it is.......here we go again
     
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  27. Gasolinefed
    Joined: Apr 17, 2018
    Posts: 105

    Gasolinefed
    Member
    from OR

    Based on the camber and control arms of the rear it may be independent also??..

    That's the danger in being a militant traditionalist imo.. during the "hight" of the hot rod there was a lot of out of the box thinking and original ideas which can be hard to define in terms of history.. I guess that's why they use the law of averages excuse, if it wasn't common it isn't trad..

    This isn't a slam but that's what can be contradictory to the spirit of hot rodding with the modern traditionalist.. Nothing wrong with building an original car if it's labeled as such.. Probably the true definition of a custom..

    IMG_0092.JPG
     
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  28. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,755

    anthony myrick
    Member

    are the 'control arms' also springs?
    looks kinda like it
     
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  29. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Capture misc-446.JPG
     
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  30. davidvillajr
    Joined: Apr 4, 2005
    Posts: 935

    davidvillajr
    Member

    But, I don't love crashing...:D
     
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