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Technical Could use some advice on model a patch panel.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Jkmar73, Apr 8, 2018.

  1. Jkmar73
    Joined: Dec 1, 2013
    Posts: 33

    Jkmar73
    Member
    from Tulare, CA

    I installed a lower quarter patch panel behind the driver side door on my model a. The patch fits tighter to the body than the original. There is about a quarter inch gap between the original and the replacement. I am trying to figure out how to match the lines and tighten the original like the new. IMG_0028.JPG IMG_0029.JPG
     
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  2. indyjps
    Joined: Feb 21, 2007
    Posts: 3,602

    indyjps
    Member

    Probably needs cut off and redone.

    Lay a straight edge across it, or hang the door. see if the new panel is dipping in at the flange, only at the weld joint, or is the entire flange off location.

    Is the car squared up? Do you have doors to check fit?
     
  3. Close the door and see what you have.
    Tweaking the patch panel and reforming it to fit should have been done before it was welded up and that ship has sailed but remember that for the next one.

    At this point you have 3 options,
    A- a small patch up panel added to the new panel to correct the discrepancy at the door jamb.
    B- cut the panel off and start over.
    C- modify the original to conform to the reproduction.

    C should be the last resort unless the original is clearly fubar
    B only if nothing else lines up also
    A seems to be the easiest

    You didn't by chance move the patch panel higher and higher up the arch drawing it further away at the door jamb ??
     
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  4. Dino 64
    Joined: Jul 13, 2012
    Posts: 1,807

    Dino 64
    Member
    from Virginia

    Non of the repo patch panels fit without modifications. A larger view of the area would be helpful. You may have to cut that one out and try again. There is usually a difference in the bead size so you have to compensate for that. Everything should line up as best is possible before welding. Where did you get the panel ?


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  5. missysdad1
    Joined: Dec 9, 2008
    Posts: 2,833

    missysdad1
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I just removed some patch panels that had been put on wrong and it looks like you may have made the same mistake. The replacement panels do not have the same curve as the quarter panel and will pull the quarter out of shape during the welding process. This is made worse by overheating the metal and/or quenching which will distort it and/or shrink it. Matching the curve of the quarter on the patch panel using an english wheel on the will help. Slow welding, allowing the weld area to naturally cool each time, will avoid distortion once you've got the curves matched. Good luck!
     
  6. Jkmar73
    Joined: Dec 1, 2013
    Posts: 33

    Jkmar73
    Member
    from Tulare, CA

    The body is square and the door closes fine. I got the panels from Brookville. The beads line up with the original correctly. 31Vickey with a hemi, I was thinking the same options you listed. Was kind of leaning towards option C. Was thinking of removing the tack nails and pulling the original in tighter and conform it to the replacement. MIssysdad1, I might try the English wheel method you mentioned. Your right, these replacement panels are flat and have no curve in them.


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  7. tb33anda3rd
    Joined: Oct 8, 2010
    Posts: 15,408

    tb33anda3rd
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Connecticut HAMB'ers

    why is the original panel so far away from the post? is the panel low in the back?
    if you just wanted to bring the top of that patch out do as 31vicky posted. you could also remove the rosa welds and flatten that bend out, then rebend it at the correct spot by sliding a flat tool behind it and hammering the bend in the right spot.
     
  8. tb33anda3rd
    Joined: Oct 8, 2010
    Posts: 15,408

    tb33anda3rd
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Connecticut HAMB'ers

    this might be a god way to go as long as the door has enough over hang.
     
  9. I recently read a Quote on here that describes most such projects like yours where Guys are on the Learning curve. It went something like this, "Do it wrong, do it twice then give it to someone that knows how to make it nice". It takes more than a Wire Welder and a Hammer to be a Body man. Kudos for trying now move into the do it twice part and show us what step one taught ya. Hay, we've all been there.
    The Wizzard
     
  10. Dino 64
    Joined: Jul 13, 2012
    Posts: 1,807

    Dino 64
    Member
    from Virginia

    Brookville sells the same panel as all the other distributors, you can get it cheaper than what Brookville charges.


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  11. Jkmar73
    Joined: Dec 1, 2013
    Posts: 33

    Jkmar73
    Member
    from Tulare, CA

    After relooking at the door jam. I think pulling and reshaping is going to be the best bet. The original is pulled out about 3/16”. The passenger side is pulled tight to the door jam. Thanks for all the advice.


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  12. Id spend some time figuring out what is off before making stuff fit,
    Measure measure measure
    Is the jamb off? Lower body line ok with door closed ? Arch to jamb same on lowest point
     
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  13. tb33anda3rd
    Joined: Oct 8, 2010
    Posts: 15,408

    tb33anda3rd
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Connecticut HAMB'ers

    yep, something moved that quarter skin forward. on the A i just had to fix the previous "patcher" changed a whole bunch of patches without getting the quarter in the right spot first.
    how much has been changed? sills? wheel wells?
     
  14. Jkmar73
    Joined: Dec 1, 2013
    Posts: 33

    Jkmar73
    Member
    from Tulare, CA

    Wheel well has been replaced. The patch does seem to line up fine. Door sills are still in great shape. Just surface rust. Will make measurements off of the passenger side. That side is still tight. IMG_0030.JPG IMG_0031.JPG IMG_0032.JPG IMG_0033.JPG


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  15. mike bowling
    Joined: Jan 1, 2013
    Posts: 3,442

    mike bowling
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    As long as it lines up with the wheel well, and the door shuts ok, add a piece to the patch and make it work. No magic involved ( save that for the rear corners of the 1/4 panels)


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  16. How is it that the Factory rivets are in the body panel to the A pillar except for the last one above where you joined the Patch and the Patch panel flange that looks 1/4" to short is also around the pillar and plug welded to same pillar? What happened there?
    The Wizzard
     
  17. Mr T body
    Joined: Nov 2, 2005
    Posts: 2,102

    Mr T body
    Alliance Vendor
    from SoCal

    Have you looked at the wood over the door jamb? Something moved that B pillar back away from the quarter skin. With the door overlapping the opening it's hard to tell if it fits "right" without measuring the overlap top to bottom.
     
  18. Vanness
    Joined: Aug 5, 2017
    Posts: 405

    Vanness
    Member

    What mike bowling said is the easiest. Cut it apart and get your gaps correct. Cut another piece out to complete the repair. All the patch panels suck. Are bent wrong or not close to the angle. (Shipping and other factors don’t help either.
     
  19. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 14,914

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Don't go comparing side to side. Those measurements weren't the same from the factory. It's not a Lexus.
     
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  20. Mr T body
    Joined: Nov 2, 2005
    Posts: 2,102

    Mr T body
    Alliance Vendor
    from SoCal

    If you are using wood in the body, don't start cutting and patching to force it to fit without finding out first what 's off. The flange from the 1/4 must be tacked flush to the B pillar tin for the door to fit properly. Rotten wood will do what you're seeing......
     
  21. tb33anda3rd
    Joined: Oct 8, 2010
    Posts: 15,408

    tb33anda3rd
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Connecticut HAMB'ers

    can we get a photo looking back along the quarter panel? open the door with back to hinges and photograph the arch in the panel. i wonder if it just flattened out.
    the whole quarter didn't drop, did it? original sill?
    why isn't the body bolt tight? bringing that down will change the alignment. they all should be tight.
     
  22. Jkmar73
    Joined: Dec 1, 2013
    Posts: 33

    Jkmar73
    Member
    from Tulare, CA

    No. I don’t believe the quarter dropped. Yes, still original sills. That bolt is tightened now. Previous one just never felt right. IMG_0042.JPG IMG_0043.JPG IMG_0042.JPG IMG_0045.JPG


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  23. tb33anda3rd
    Joined: Oct 8, 2010
    Posts: 15,408

    tb33anda3rd
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Connecticut HAMB'ers

    the bow front to back looks flat, that may be why the original quarter overlaps the jamb. imagine if the patch was not on it and you could squeeze the front and back of the quarter together, it would pucker out.
    i also notice that the rear of the patch looks too far in.
    please don't take me wrong, i am in no way criticizing your work in a bad way. i am just trying to work with you to find a solution.
     
  24. Jkmar73
    Joined: Dec 1, 2013
    Posts: 33

    Jkmar73
    Member
    from Tulare, CA

    No criticism taken. I appreciate the help. This is the first patch panel I have ever done. And I still have the other side and and the front cowl lower patches to do still.
    The patch in the back is lined up with the original bead on the quarter. It’s sucked in, but I also need to make a piece to go between the patch and the wheel well. That should push it out a bit.
    The lower panels of this car were gone when we got it. A lot of it is trying to figure out what was there before and get the new pieces to fit there.


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  25. As in most if not all pre made Patch Panels they do not come with correct and some times not even close to correct contours. On the patch your showing installed in order to have the correct contour top to bottom or even front to back the flange needs to have shape put into it before installed. To do that the flange needed to go through a shrinker to be corrected to matching shape. Once welded in place it's to late to correct them. You can't fold a flange in a brake as is done on them and get a contour, that takes a stamping process and that isn't how that one was made. There's two ways to fix that. Remove it and start over or build the shape into the panel with Body man in a Can.
    The Wizzard
     
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  26. Jkmar73
    Joined: Dec 1, 2013
    Posts: 33

    Jkmar73
    Member
    from Tulare, CA

    After looking at the panel again today, I decided to order a new panel and cut this one off and start over. Will also look for someone that has an english wheel that can put the curves in it for me. I am going to look into tightening up the original metal to fit tighter around the door jam. Thanks for all the advice everyone.


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  27. boutlaw
    Joined: Apr 30, 2010
    Posts: 1,199

    boutlaw
    Member

    Good decision Jk, we all learn from our mistakes. My coupe required all the same panels and rear corners. I even had to "rechop" the top because the roof was nothing more than molded filler over rotten metal. I had to order 2 sets of rear corners to get it done in a way that was acceptable to me. I'm certainly no expert, but by the time I was done, I had learned a lot and developed even more respect for the guys on this forum that do this all the time and are giving you advice. Don't be afraid to cut it out and do it again, even twice, because you'll never be happy with a botched job. Even a less than perfect job, that you did yourself, will generally only be noticed by the experts. One thing that helped me more than anything, was "practicing" on scrap pieces of sheet metal the same thickness as what you plan to weld. Play with the welder and get the temp and wire speed right for your stitch welds and BE PATIENT.
     
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  28. JK; I don't call what you have there a Mistake, rather a practice run. We all have done this, it's the natural learning curve. Seeing it done isn't the same as doing it. There's only one way to learn and get good.
    The Wizzard
     
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  29. Jkmar73
    Joined: Dec 1, 2013
    Posts: 33

    Jkmar73
    Member
    from Tulare, CA

    Yea, I’m going to use this mistake to get the shape of the curves right. Then bend the new one to match. I don’t think an english wheel will be the way to go, as that stretches the metal. Will probably just bend it on my leg to get the curves.


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  30. I think just working the 90 degree flange will get you a long way forward. If you don't have a Shrinker Strecher you can use a Tucking tool or a pair of Clinch pliers to put a curve in the flange. If you just flex it over your knee it won't hold the shape during the weld in process.
    Wehrs Machine Vise Grip Shrinking Tool

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    upload_2018-4-15_12-28-27.jpeg
    These are not my first choice being it makes a little high spot at each tuck but they will get the job done.
    The Wizzard
     
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