The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by KING CHASSIS, Jan 1, 2011.
Looks like a nice no hit body.
Is that what a $26,000 Corvette looks like?
Interesting find Roo.
It is also for sale in the classifieds here on the HAMB....
Digging this one...something about old corvette drag cars...
Bruce and Roo, I wondered about the price as well. I am not sure he is going to sell it real soon at that price. A couple of years ago I repaired one of these C1 frames that had rusted out and it was a bit of work to say the least. Most guys would look for another frame from a restomod project I suppose and it may be cheaper in the long run. Only saving grace to a repair is you get to keep the frame stamped VIN. I have helped in a few purchases and sales of these cars in the last few years and if I was to advise someone on that car I would try and keep them below 20 with the big block etc.
The one thing that I would like to find out is if it has any history-especially as a car that may have run in MP or modified eliminator. If that was the case it may be worth to me personally. There are not too many guys though that are really into the old Vette drag cars to own or resurrect- a few of us have mental issues with them but not many.
Bowtie Coupe your observations on Cherry Smash has me scratching my head a bit. I bought my black 62 in 77 and redid the car and would have thought that style interior was a bit out of style then. If you remember it in black in the 70s it is a bit weird to me, I guess. I still like the car-maybe velour was still in style and my mind is gone.
I recently spoke to the current owner of the Ozoroski/Collins car above. Good guy out east and it is a cool car for sure.
A picture is worth a 1000 words so for clarity compare the subject tag to a factory tag.
An original tag
Dennis Hopper at the wheel. Yeah I want to do one like this. Only kind of racing I care about any more.
RIP Charley Woit
I'm afraid so. Seems like there are plenty of restomod builders willing to pay that and more for a good body with title and tags. There might be a greater focus at the moment on '63 coupes than the solid axle cars (C1's). A friend in Michigan recently told me about a builder in Iowa he met that told him he had 12 '63 coupes in line to restomod. The Barrett Jackson circus which is not the real world as we know it clearly demonstrated this year that they have ample deep pocket buyers willing to pay incredible prices for these things. There is a cottage industry of builders whose business plan is build and sell at these type venues.
Dan you make a good point but after watching Barrett Jackson this year I saw a few restomods bring in really strong money-but some I am not so sure. A number of them I do not believe even paid for the money that the owner had into them. I have had a number of people talk to me about their projects and prices quoted for a resto mod make over. I am sure that prices vary but I would not be surprised if most resto mods cost $150 or more. I have known a couple of guys pay around $30 for a project in decent shape and got quotes for $150 to resto mod them. That being said we have to define what a resto mod is exactly. Some guys, including friends, lowered them and put an Art Morrison front suspension, bigger brakes and large wheels and tell me they resto modded their Vette. I believe a true resto mod has little more than an original body and VIN plate. Many change frames, rear axle, rear suspension, front suspension, engine, trans, interior, etc. They are pretty much a kit car with a body sold by GM, although many of these bodies are also altered to make way for wider wheels. That proverbial 63 Vette that rolls into the shop as a stock project, leaves a completely different automobile in almost every way.
I also missed the VIN plate stamping (without enlarging the photo) as you pointed out, but it brings a thought to mind. The restomod guys are removing their VINs and attaching them to a totally new car with an old body and claiming they are what the VIN states they are--I assume. You wonder if the issue actually was litigated in a generic court (since most jurisdictions differ) what the determination would be?
The restomod guys snap up all the lower level cars leaving us “regular “ guys outside looking in, unless you can pony up for a numbers car. Its funny all vettes are numbers matching now!
Art and Craig Morrison's "3G" 1960 Corvette brought $187 K at Barret Jackson earlier this month and that was a lot less than expected for a car that in 2006 was chosen at SEMA to be immortalized in Sony's Play Station GT5 game.
So true. It has been happening for a long time. Project cars can be a way for limited budgets to obtain a car. Now the restoration guys have been joined by the restomod guys. As you say it puts these over priced cars out of the reach of many average folks. People that would love it, appreciate it, and keep it. Rather than the Johnny Come Lateleys that wear a car like jewellery to show off. Then tire of it and move on to the next flavor of the month to say look at me.
It has been addressed here how some racers from the glory days have been restored to stock and there history lost. That's part of Corvette's over all history and one of the main elements that makes them so desirable. Unfortunately the neglected and derelict racers that surface are also prey for restomod builders. Not just the restorers.
Some of those matching numbers owners are just fooling themselves or trying to fool others. Sometimes for personal gain. Some are those that have been fooled. It's all just foolish pretnders.
Roo, I did not watch all of it and apparently missed that sale. I would assume most guys would expect more than $250,000. I know the car was a high end build.
Scotty I have been surprised that some of the resto mod guys start with really nice cars. I know a friend of a friend that tried to buy my black car (kind of- he was a bit low IMO) and then offered some pretty strong money when he was looking for a project for a resto mod. He ended up buying a really nice car-I think he paid near $40,000 (maybe $38,000). Tore it all apart and the parts went to the wind. I know another guy who posted on here in the past and he bought a really nice turn key 63 coupe and went the full resto mod route-everything changed. Came out nice in the end but it shows that some do not care to start with a real "tough" project. Their dime I suppose. The high end builds more than likely ride really well, but I still like my Fred Flintstone cars-they put a smile on my face every time I get behind the wheel. I have people occasionally ask me to take them for a ride and I generally tell them what to expect-similar to strapping 2-2x4s to your backside and driving down the road. Afterwards they seem to appreciate the experience moreso I believe.
Dan the whole numbers matching deal is a farce. If people buy into that bilge then they deserve what they get. I wish they would bury that term and starting using "born with" but I doubt that will ever happen.
Found some others to share...
A lot of those newcomers ($$$) to the restored Corvette deal got caught with their Calvin Kleins down, when they went to bail and move on to their newest distraction.
They found they hadn't bought the "sure thing" investment they thought they had.
The "matching number" (sorry Jim) part only gets you half way there, what they failed to educate themselves on was the cars' lineage based on casting and mfg dates.
I think that is why you see certain cars at the BJ gig that don't bring the big bucks that were expected.
I had a rude awakening when I was chasing the L79 Nova rabbit, my motivation was not investment driven but purely from a hobbyist position, the problem is that the parts scalpers don't differentiate between us Levi wearing types and the Calvin Klein types.
Doug I have told the story before but when I had my shop in Socal in the 80s, I did some horse trading with Mike Ernst the 62 Vette guru (I had some big brake parts). He must have mentioned my black 62 which is #12 to this guy from out of state (although Mike told me he did not-I believe thru the grapevine this guy from out of state found me). At that time the #5 car had not shown up so a probability #12 was the oldest (#1 had burned along with #13). He made me an offer out of the blue which I thought was ludicrous on a number of fronts-my black car or its parts were not for sale or trade-I was happy with it. He wanted my 327/365 crate motor and would trade me a rebuilt 340hp with all of the correct parts. He told me I would have everything on the car "numbers matching" and I would have to give my parts up in exchange and $10,000. Now mind you I bought my avatar car (in somewhat questionable shape-an old race car) for around $3000 a couple of years before in Yucaipa Ca. What was included in the $10,000 deal was a binder with all of the documentation and receipts from a closed Chevrolet dealership to establish it's provenance. He showed me a binder as an example and the level of fraud was off the charts-done very well as fraud goes. I sent him packing and just shook my head.
To this day when I see all the documentation and see a binder or something similar I raise my eyebrows.
I have 7 vettes, 4 are what’s referred to as c2’s , took me a while to remember/understand the c1,c2,c3 thing. About 2005 I bought a ls2 from Mark Campbell. Sam Foose hooked me up. Since then anything I want to drive will have the gm connect and cruise package. I also don’t care for the restomod handle. My two 63’s a vert and a coupe have the updated drivetrain, stock frame , and 67 master cylinder and 4 wheel 67 disc brake. Easy to convert back, and yet now reliable in California traffic. On the coupe I kept the core support, fi unit,eng, 3rd member trailing arms etc. since Vietnam I have owned way more than 50 of the 63-67 cars. Oh forgot cars are now automatic , but the Muncie s are in the gm plastic trans containers. (The others 56,69,2012 gs)
I'm falling behind the conversation.
Jim I'm in lockstep with you on every thing you say in your first paragraph.
I'm told by some fortunate enough to attend as onlookers that not all of the thousands of cars at BJ for sale are of a high quality. They tell me the sale price disparity restomods that drew less money tended to be of lesser quality. I assume there are builders and then there are builders. I witnessed one here that overheated from day one. Frequently wouldn't shift and would shut down at will. He stopped kidding himself and dumped the car at a significant loss. It had been a decent driver that was complete and reliable.
Paragraph 2. When I think I know how something legal will go from a common sense standpoint a lawyer usually bursts my bubble. My take on the federal law is that individuals can't move or fool with VINs. There may be a process involving authorities under specific circumstances. The above car retained it's VIN tag. They debated which way to go. Their thinking was it would allow the car to evade emissions regulations. They ground the VIN stamp off the original frame and sold it off for dirt.
I would prefer that restomods register as a home built or low volume manufacture and apply for a State issued VIN. I suppose the low volume route would expose the car to more contemporary regulations.
hahaha, read people over at the corvette forum are so anal they have documentation on the punches and how worn they were, which dictated how they stamped there blocks. Fuck a bunch of that shit.....mine had a CE block and i could give a shit less.....
Roger I am sure you and many others appreciate resto mods (whatever you want to call it-if it has an updated chassis/suspension etc-most with an LS). My wife keeps bugging me to make the switch but I doubt it will happen. Whether I am living in the past or not, I like getting in my cars and having them remind me of days gone by-I really like the adventure. I have had a number of LS engines in my Sierras and I have an LS3 in my Sierra Denali and love it. When I have to go somewhere in comfort I chose the Sierra. But with all of the pie in the sky plans I have for my Corvette projects, none include any real updates to modern components-just not in my DNA. I know many of the updated Corvettes carve a nice path on twisting roads but I am one of those gluttons that would rather run an old Vette suspension with period "road racing" parts on a twisting road. To each their own I suppose. No harm no foul.
Dan as to the whole deal on VIN plates, my read of the Federal law is different-just for kicks reread USC 18 part 1, Chapter 25 (b)(2)(B)-"does not apply to...a person who repairs such vehicle or part of, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair".. I don't want to get into a lengthy legal argument but I read things on the HAMB regarding VIN plates and I am not sure how correct all of these statements are-just my opinion.
Short of a time machine nothing else will deliver that experience either.
As to the late model trucks and LS engines; I learned to drive in a 64 Chevy pickup with a 292 and granny four speed.............I like my Silverado.
Jim, I'll be the first one to tell you that my memory is nowhere near what it used to be, but I think we just have our wires crossed. I guess what I was trying to say was that Bob's black car was the pre-Cherry Smash configuration and it had a stock black interior. Now, Bob's seats may have been recovered. I just don't know. But during that same time period, my '61 had an original black interior that was still in great shape and my '62, also in that same period, had an original red interior that was in the same condition. When Bob transformed that black car into the Cherry Smash car, it was a wild and drastic change.
I am with you all the way on this Jim. It is hard to describe the feeling I get when I drive my 61 corvette. The fact that is powered by a manafre equipped small block and has its king pin front suspension makes it all the better. Driving one of these makes you feel completely "connected to the process of driving" Instead of isolated from it. Just stabbing the gas pedal and grabbing a couple of gears brings such a smile to my face and makes me feel like a kid again. And if crature comforts are needed I can drive my Lowered 04 Silverado... It has the only Ls any of my cars will ever have. Carbs and ignition points forever!!!!!
Pat, I know what you mean-been out all morning-fun stuff. We have a little farm (or ranch whatever) and this weather is making warmth a harder task with our animals and pipes freezing etc.
Mark, a guy in my car club rebuilt a 61 and fancied it a resto mod. He lowered it, put on the requisite large wheels and opted for a Jim Meyer front suspension (he passed away and it is now for sale). One night before a club meeting he asked if I would drive it and see if I could feel a vibration in the steering wheel. The car handled very differently from mine for sure. I had driven my black 62 to his house and when I got back in my car to continue to the club meeting it was a perfect way of comparing the two different setups. Hard to explain to some people but I appreciated my car even more after the comparison-others would think I am nuts.
I think Doug is right, it is kind of like a time machine.
Corvette Grand Sports… at the 1963 Nassau Grand Prix
Jim, clearly you are right. My excuse is I haven't read it in a long time. In my defence I did indicate under some sort of specific circumstances. I do think the powers that be could make an issue of some of the reasons a builder or restorer gives for the necessity of removal/reinstall. I have become more narrow in my view of VIN tags for two reasons. First I lost a great car that I owned for a very long time to a low life thief. He re-VIN'd the car and sold it.. Second I have been watching as the federal government requires all states to link vehicle registration information. You are probably aware this has exposed cases where the same VIN was on more than one car. Also cars being registered from another state and requiring state inspection has turned up cars with one VIN on the body and another on the frame. Resulting in immediate impound. We both know most of these are the result of a practical repair for a rust problem. These are just two examples of things that have caused some owners legal grief in recent years.
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