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Technical Coolant question

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 6sally6, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. 6sally6
    Joined: Feb 16, 2014
    Posts: 750

    6sally6
    Member

    Have 4.3 Shivel-lay engine that's making me "scratch my head"!
    Engine and radiator is pretty rusty............."how rusty you axe"!
    Rusty enough it was piled up around the thermostat.It tried to leave me on the road (temp gauge pegged) water was spewing out of the pressure cap when I cracked it to relieve the pressure.....over flow bottle was full of rusty water too.....yet it was still over heating.....Strange, huh?!o_O
    Removed the thermostat and back flushed everything and left thermostat OUT.
    Now when I open pressure cap NOTHING spews! No pressure at all! I know water pump is working because when I rev the engine the water level in the radiator sucks down.
    Will pressure build ONLY when water gets above 212*?....Did I just answer my own lame question??:eek:
    Another strange issue......petcock on bottom of radiator can be removed and NOTHING comes out!! Even when the cap is on and I rev the engine...not a drop of water comes out! Got a solution (on pun intended) to fix the stopped up petcock and rust issue?
    I used distilled water and antifreeze in it.... Thought that would prevent rusting problems.
    Thanx
    6sally6
     
  2. Petejoe
    Joined: Nov 27, 2002
    Posts: 10,119

    Petejoe
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Zoar, Ohio

    Yes your radiator won’t pressurize until its near 212 when the water turns to gas and expands.
    Your Pet cock (and bottom of the radiator) is full of rust.
    Best option.
    Remove the radiator and have it cleaned out at a shop.
    2nd best.
    Drain the whole system.
    In your case remove the petcock and insert a wire to open up the clog.
    Pour 100% vinegar in the system.
    Run the engine, drive the car for a day. The heated engine allows the vinegar to clean very well. Danger...
    Do not insert French fries.
    Drain and flush.
    Repeat as many times as it takes to get a clean system.
    I’ve done it 4 times in some systems.
    Once your happy. Throw clean water and some baking soda in the system to neutralize the acid.
    Drain and install 50/50 antifreeze.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  3. 6sally6
    Joined: Feb 16, 2014
    Posts: 750

    6sally6
    Member

    Vinegar, huh?! I thought about that....I also wondered about dumping naval jelly in it.....Diet Pepsi desolves rust too (thought about that one !)
    Just "jewg" it out good with a war,huh?
    Thanx
    6sally6
     
    loudbang likes this.
  4. Petejoe
    Joined: Nov 27, 2002
    Posts: 10,119

    Petejoe
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Zoar, Ohio

    Being a chef/ meatcutter you already know what effect vinegar does.
    Yes do it. You will not believe the crap that will come out of your system.
    It’s unbelievable.
     
    lothiandon1940 and VANDENPLAS like this.
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  5. 41rodderz
    Joined: Sep 27, 2010
    Posts: 3,212

    41rodderz
    Member
    from Oregon

    Glad you didn't post this tribulation on the freeze plug/core plug/frost plug thread. :p Now are plugs steel or brass ?
     
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  6. upspirate
    Joined: Apr 15, 2012
    Posts: 2,053

    upspirate
    Member

    I quit using petcocks years ago. I just take off the lower hose.....messy, but much faster. Have the rad cleaned
     
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  7. Penetrator
    Joined: Aug 25, 2011
    Posts: 244

    Penetrator
    Member
    from SK CAN

    Got mud?

    Regular antifreeze and Dex-Cool don't mix. What's worse? Oxygen and Dex- Cool don't mix, either. The result of either combination is "Mississippi Mud".

    In my one, miserable experience with the issue, it took several flushings to clear the mud. A few heat cycles with vinegar and back flushes in between.

    .
     
  8. You’ve got a leak, ran it low , it’s sucking in air. The air has oxygen and the oxygen causes rust.

    It needs a very thorough flush and probably not gonna help much
     
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  9. Fuck that !
    If the pet cock doesn’t work I drill a hole in the lower hose. There’s obviously something else wrong anyway with that cooling system if the pet cock is plugged and a new lower hose is the least of the problems.
    Besides it being cheaper to change the hose than labor to clean up that mess- it’s safer and more professional.
     
    weps, upspirate and Truckdoctor Andy like this.
  10. I would pull the radiator and find a shop [ have one here ] that will remove the tanks and ROD IT OUT.

    Ben
     
  11. It’s a plastic and aluminum radiator?
    Get a new one, they are kinda cheap and disposable
     
    Desoto291Hemi likes this.
  12. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 3,811

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    OK, this is flat out wrong. Please don't repost that, it's bad info. Pressure in the cooling system will start to build right away, as the coolant will expand as it heats up. The whole idea with using a pressure cap is to PREVENT the water from turning to a gas, once the water turns to a gas, THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF OVERHEATING!!! Please, this is basic cooling system operation 101 stuff.
     
  13. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 3,811

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    No, please, there are cooling system cleaners out there that are formulated specifically for this, use one of them. And follow the directions on the container.

    https://peakauto.com/products/antif...ill-accessories/cooling-system-cleaner-flush/
     
  14. 6sally6
    Joined: Feb 16, 2014
    Posts: 750

    6sally6
    Member

    Yeah......I know they sell coolant flush but, does it work any better than a home remedy like vinegar?! Working for Poop Boys a few years has made me sorta skeptical of some of this "cure-in-a-can" stuff. Comments??!
    6sally6
     
  15. The old heavy duty cooling system cleaners that had a whitish powder in a can were oxalic acid. Or what is also commonly known as wood bleach at the hardware store. Vinegar is acetic acid, BTW.
    Any acid will work to dissolve rust in the engine and radiator. Vinegar is pretty mild, the oxalic is easy since it is a powder and you just dump 8-16 oz into the system and let it run for a while and up to operating temp before you flush it all out.
     
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  16. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 3,811

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Engine mfgr' like Cummin's want to see you use the proper products to get the best results. If vinegar was a good alternative they would tell you that. In all the years in business, when we talk about "Best Practices", vinegar in the cooling system has never been suggested. I linked to the Peak product, because Peak is a leader in the industry. I worked with those guys for years, they know their shit, and their products are the best in the bizz. I wouldn't hesitate to use it. I don't know everything sold at Poop Boys, and there might be some cheap crap there that wouldn't be wise to use, but I would trust Peak. And I don't like endorsing products, I'm not a sales man, but in this case, that's what I would use and advise using.
     
  17. Petejoe
    Joined: Nov 27, 2002
    Posts: 10,119

    Petejoe
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Zoar, Ohio

    Valid point #blues4u,
    Water expands only 4% between room temperature and Boiling. Most times the small expansion just fills the void in a coolant system and shows no appreciable pressure expected when removing the cap. Actual noticeable pressure is not evident until it’s closer to boiling.

    Don’t understand the pushback on vinegar. Until you experienced the effects and compare it to store bought shit, I’d be hesitant in critiquing it.
     
  18. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 3,345

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    I've always used Cascade dishwasher soap after something like an oil cooler failure, CAT puts a box in with a new oil cooler kit. Don't know what it would do for rust though. Might be good to use after you use vinegar or one of the other products for the final wash out before you refill it with anti freeze. Like 31 Vickey said though, if it's an aluminum and plastic radiator it might be better to just replace it, doubt many shops can clean those like they do the old brass and copper ones. I'd still flush the block before I put a new radiator on or you'll end up with that crud in it all over again.
     
  19. patterg2003
    Joined: Sep 21, 2014
    Posts: 527

    patterg2003

    I think with that much rust there was no antifreeze used. I buy my vehicles about 3 years old with 30k miles and drive them until they are done. My dad used Prestone and when I got into owning did the same. Good antifreeze and they are worry free. The current new to me truck is 14 years old and sees temps to minus 40. It is doing well since I eliminated the Dexcool.

    On another note. I got rid of the Dexcool. My friend had to have the intake gasket replaced on his Chev truck. He asked the GM dealer about that & they said it was rare. Don did some research and found that the Dexcool needs to be checked to see it is in good and when it turns bad it eats gaskets. He said there was a lot of info on how bad Dexcool is. A lot more common than the dealer was telling him. I dragged my foot on dumping the Dexcool. The waterpump gasket on my Chev truck started weeping and the GM dealer told me that I needed a water pump. I order a new water pump and learned when I pulled the old pump that it was the gasket. I changed the pump anyways as I was deep in it. I always used Prestone before this truck. Flushed out the Dexcool & now it is running with Prestone. I was dreading loosing another gasket but it has been about 6 years since I switched.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
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  20. 6sally6
    Joined: Feb 16, 2014
    Posts: 750

    6sally6
    Member

    Being in the "sunny South" I have been running distilled water and a minimum amout of anti freeze(mainly for water pump lubrication) but still enough to protect the engine for low teens extended temps. BUT!......
    I DO have a leaking heater core. Not a bad leak but enough to smell. You think that could let enough oxygen in the system to cause "chocolate milk colored(oooooooh..... mom he said colored!):eek:water"?!
    Maybe I didn't put enough anti freeze in it after all!
    I may do the vinegar and after a couple days flush and do the Peak flush. (BTW.....the thermostat is NOT in the system now)
    Gonna stick a-piece-a-war in that petcock hole to see if I can un-stop it.
    6sally6
     
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  21. patterg2003
    Joined: Sep 21, 2014
    Posts: 527

    patterg2003

    North of the border the antifreeze is 50/50 or better. Funny you should mention the heater as problem. I know a couple friends had their heaters leak but they would buy whatever was the cheapest. The distilled water is free of minerals and chlorine but may contribute some to the problem. We run 800 psi boilers in our mill that uses demineralized water that is as close to pure water as it gets but they added chemicals to the boiler water to protect the boilers. The superheater loops hang down and when the largest boiler was taken down for maintenance condensation collected in the bottom of the loops. Over time the pitting was so bad that the tubes began to leak. The bottom loops were all x rayed to see their conditions & a program set up to change the bends out over a couple annual shutdowns. The metallurgist said that condensation caught in the loops was aggressive to the steel. The boiler shutdown procedure changed with boiler drained down and the pilot burners left on to dry the boilers out and no further issue. I managed a project to build a learning center that used a hot water heating system where chemicals had to be added to the system every month to keep the system happy. If the treatment was missed the control valves started to act up but would settle down with the treatment chemicals. I also managed an office expansion of equal size where the heating fluid is a 50/50 antifreeze and the system works without control valve issues. All the pulpmill heat systems use glycol. So not sure about pure water & iron. I have used Prestone and change it about every 5 or 6 years. I have had no radiator or heater issues in all my years of driving except once that was self inflicted. I changed a water pump that went well. I was picking the tools off the engine of the truck and dropped a pair of needle nose pliers that did a glance pointed end first poking a hole in a fin.
     
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  22. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 3,564

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    It may not freeze where you live but a 50/50 ratio of coolant and water is recommended for corrosion protection. Maybe they are just trying to sell more antifreeze. It won't hurt anything.
     
  23. 6sally6
    Joined: Feb 16, 2014
    Posts: 750

    6sally6
    Member

    Last two posts are interesting!..I was a pipe welder in my previous life. Welded'em in but never got into the why they went bad. end of things.
    I was under the impression that 100% WATER was the best coolant but antifreeze lubricated the water pump.(and wouldn't freeze in cold weather also).
    Maybe..........I need to up my percentage of antifreeze,huh?!
    6sally6
     
  24. And fix the heater core.
     
  25. 6sally6
    Joined: Feb 16, 2014
    Posts: 750

    6sally6
    Member

     
  26. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 1,706

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    What part of the water pump are you lubricating ????
     
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  27. Torana68
    Joined: Jan 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,080

    Torana68
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Australia

    Anti freeze is for just that, nothing else, you used to add an oil for pump bearings but that’s for antiques, coolant is anti freeze and anti corrosion and sometimes to raise boiling point. They are all different, stick with a modern coolant especially with dissimilar metals ( alloy heads , steel bits , brass etc).
     
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  28. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 3,564

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    The anti-freeze part in engine coolant doesn't wear out, the glycol. It will protect against freezing pretty much indefinitely.

    The corrosion inhibitor stuff, that does wear out after a few years, that's why the flush ritual. A 50/50 ratio of water and coolant provides freeze protection to -34° F. below zero. Strangely enough, pure antifreeze will freeze around +20°, it needs to have water mixed with it to provide extended freeze protection.

    A 50/50 mix also provides boilover protection by raising the boiling point. A 50/50 mix also provides the full package of corrosion inhibitors, supposedly even more important with aluminum radiators. I never really saw any particular reason not to use it.
     
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  29. If you use a dish detergent to flush the cooling system, if there are any aluminum parts in the system, be very careful to completely flush out the solution used to clean the system. Most dish detergents are basic, and are really corrosive to aluminum parts.
    Most detergents have a ph of approximately 9, which doesn't sound that bad, but the scale is logrithmic, meaning it will do damage, if left in the cooling system for an extended period.
    Dove detergent has a Ph of 7.0, which is neutral, and would be a better alternative.
    Bob
     
  30. deathrowdave
    Joined: May 27, 2014
    Posts: 1,774

    deathrowdave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NKy

    Water Expands at the rate of 1700 to 1 at 212* or boiling point . There is a lot happening when the change of state takes place . Home fixes may work fine , there are lots of things that maybe effected in a negative way using vinegar . It maybe fine also I just don’t know and I would not want to be the one you determines it destroyed all my gaskets . Again I just don’t know , guess your best . Somewhere the system is taking in air , causing corrosion . You keep the radiator full with a recovery tank and proper anti freeze with rust inhibitors the cooling system will stay clean .
     
    Blues4U likes this.

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