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Projects COE build thread - "Git r' done"

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kscarguy, Feb 14, 2013.

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  1. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    More good news. While searching for all the sheetmetal parts I bent up years ago, I came across two sections of box that I trimmed off the front curves. The pieces have all the bead rolling and bends done to them. 5" long each, perfect for the box extension.
     
  2. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    Here is how the door ends go together to create the jambs:

    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]
     
  3. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    Computer design is coming together well. Working on main support bracket design. Not sure I like the extra holes "drilled' in the upper arm, but they do church it up a bit.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    New design dilema. Rotation and actuator mount...

    [​IMG]

    I wonder if I can relocate the actuator to the side (solid orage) and use some kind of linkage...? Here is a top view

    [​IMG]
     
  5. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    Anyone have any experience with actuators? Will this type setup hold up or will it bend?

    [​IMG]
     
  6. PKap
    Joined: Jan 5, 2011
    Posts: 593

    PKap
    Member
    from Alberta

    I use a lot of actuators. You may have to add a spring to take some of the weight. (Think garage door being almost neutral weight). Depending on your mechanical advantage or leverage you can gain with your attachment bell crank will determine what you need. Most actuators will label weight capacity and usually have a safety built in where they will not move a load heavy enough to bend them.


    Posted from the TJJ App for iPhone & iPad
     
  7. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    I have the doors balanced with spring cylinders (trunk struts). There is a "hump" point where they are in neutral balance. Lift the door above that point and the door tries to lift itself up with a force of 10 pounds, below that it tries to close with the same 10 ponds of force.

    I did a detailed drawing on the computer and a normal straight shaft (without the hook) will work without bottoming out if I use a 6" actuator.


    Q1 - How do I stop the actuator from over-rotating the door open or closed?
    Q2 - Are there stops switches in the actuator? How easy are they to adjust and how accurate will that adjustment be?
    Q3 - How much can I reduce the travel of a 6" actuator?


    Thanks
     
  8. PKap
    Joined: Jan 5, 2011
    Posts: 593

    PKap
    Member
    from Alberta

    It is fairly easy to set a limit switch on each end point of your travel, especially since it is all low voltage. A locating pin on your arm or door will activate the stop switches. Many actuators do have integral stops that are set with adjusting screws like a garage door opener. I have not heard of any that have "walking adjustment" issues, but sometimes the door hardware will develop slack which will affect the accuracy of the close. For that reason, I would recommend the external stop switches working off of the door itself, then it will always start and stop at the same place
    You can make a 6" actuator work 1/2" if you want, my concern would be speed. If you only use about, say 2" of actuator movement to make the door travel 18", the door will travel 9 times faster than the actuator,and require more force (reverse leverage). If you were at 1:1 movement, your actuator is moving 10 lbs, if you try to move 18" with 2" of travel, your force requirement will be 90lbs. Most of the units I have used do not have speed adjustments, so you may want to play with the length of the drive arm. You can also try a bellcrank arrangement to gain leverage and additional length of movement to get the speed you want.
    The base of the actuator usually is on a pivot allowing one plane of rotation, I think I would try to have it mounted in the upper corner, like you do, but traveling towards the lower front corner. This may give you greater leverage and a longer travel length. With this arrangement, I think you would need another pivot point for the lift arm, which likely interferes with your hinges. But that is what makes this so fun!
    Good luck


    Posted from the TJJ App for iPhone & iPad
     
  9. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    PRICING MATERIALS...holy mackerel! Stainless plate is super expensive.

    I am considering using 3/8" x 1 3/4" aluminum for the hinge arms. Will it be strong enough to resist bending in both directions?

    I also discovered aluminum is half as expensive to cut on a water jet.
     
  10. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    The basic hinge mount design to go inside the box. It allows the lower hinge point on the box to rotate but yet maintain the correct geometry. It also allows me to adjust the hinge arms in and out to fit between the box and door jamb without hitting, by adding/removing shims.

    Two plates connected together - main plate captures bolt heads as water jet can cut upper hole in shape of bolt head and also create a slot the width of lower bolt head for lower bolt to rotate within. A second plate welds to main plate and locates the upper hole and slot for lower bolt to stick through...basically the heads get captured between box wall and second plate.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 1, 2013
  11. jo-el-eo
    Joined: Jan 30, 2013
    Posts: 2

    jo-el-eo
    Member
    from Duluth, MN

    You're awesome. Hint: download google sketchup (it's free) and watch the tutorial videos. It's a free 3d modeling program - easy to use and very powerful.
     
  12. jo-el-eo
    Joined: Jan 30, 2013
    Posts: 2

    jo-el-eo
    Member
    from Duluth, MN

    Did I mention free?
     
  13. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    I am going to start making the parts this week. It will be difficult to do, while keeping my fingers crossed.

    :)
     
  14. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    I am worried that the hinges could get bent with force applied to the side (someone leaning on the door) I came up with a gusset idea to help strengthen the arms.

    The gusset, (purple) is 1/2" wide x 3/4" tall and will be connected to the hinge with S.S. flat head screws. The screw heads will give the hinge some bling.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
  15. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    I am working on the final design so it can go to the water jet guys. This shape takes after the detail on the cowl vent and dash emblem.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. wibble_1979
    Joined: Sep 25, 2012
    Posts: 107

    wibble_1979
    Member

    I think your hinge idea is cool. For some reson I look at it and keep thinking why not put a perimiter frame around the door, hinge on the bottom and another set of strut's so the doors will also fold down to be a light weight work station/ beer table? either or I still think the door idea is cool subscribed
     
  17. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    The orignal plan was to hinge them at the bottom, I even have the piano hinges. Then I realized that I could not reach over the 25" tall door and into the 18 deep box. It also hung out so far it was a tripping hazard. That is where and why this project stopped a long time ago.

    I am so close now, I can feel it. A little more CAD work to fix a change I made to the lower hinge pivot location and it is ready for fabrication. I have the correct hinge shoulder bolts, the correct struts and everything ready to go on the machining end. Next week should be a biggie.
     
  18. 50 chevy matt
    Joined: Nov 27, 2012
    Posts: 129

    50 chevy matt
    Member
    from UK

    seems a lot of hassle to make something that has been done so many times before on similar opening doors to me,

    why didnt you just do a copy of the coach/bus idea which is tried and tested ?
    you know where they put your luggage underneath the coach and the door goes up and then down into place and stays up or down with the gas struts and a latch to keep everything secure

    love the COE though
     
  19. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    Thanks for the comment on the COE. I am hinging the doors like a bus. FYI -It is not a simple thing to do. A bus is flat and very tall, I have limited height and a bed hanging out 2" over the face of the boxes.

    Once I have everything cut out, and assembled on the ground, I'll take pictures and it will make a lot more sense to everyone. Heck even a fellow COE'r, who has been involved via lots of emails, didn't quite envision it until he came over to my garage and saw it in person. Then he said..'Oh, now I get it'.
     
  20. Simply a brilliant idea and very well executed!
     
  21. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    Ran into a little snag. I need to design the "storage box to truck frame" mounts now, to make sure they fit in the same area where the hinge mounts attach. Otherwise I am good to go on the hinges...

    So...next problem. Because the boxes are so long (over 6 feet) I am worried that if I mount them rigid to the frame, then potencial frame twist might break something. They are low to the ground so nothing can be bolted below them. I am thinking of mounting them fixed at the front and mounting the back with a pivot in the middle. There is an intermediate mount as well, located between the fuel tank and storage area.

    I measuerd and found that I can move my rear end forward 4-1/2" without cutting into the box, but not with the stock spring bracket. So I am kicking around the idea of building a bracket that combines the rear sping hanger and box mount together in one assembly.
     
  22. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    Frame twist is a serious issue. I borrowed this picture on another site and it shows what I am worried about. Mounting the boxes rigid to the frame rails would break something for sure...

    [​IMG]

    I came up with this idea. Looking at the back of the box...the rubber snubbers support the box, the pivot allows rotation. It is not perfect as it causes the box to move sideways as well as up and down when the frame twist. This puts stress on the front mounts.

    Perhaps a pendulum instead of a pivot?

    [​IMG]

    BTW - I am definitely open to any suggestions or ideas on how to mount the boxes. I am getting a bit stumped.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  23. PKap
    Joined: Jan 5, 2011
    Posts: 593

    PKap
    Member
    from Alberta

    My brother has delivery trucks with 4 ft boxes solidly mounted to the deck and has 6' boxes solidly mounted to his 40' trailer, goes off road a lot. I have never seen any mount issues. We usually just bolt through the top of the box into the deck using 1/8" 3x3 washers to reinforce the mounting. Loads regularly 100 lbs+ of chains and straps.
    If you look at your flex picture, a box mounted independently on each side really does not see much flex over its 18" width. In fact, it will be less than what your flat deck experiences. For a low truck like yours, I think the amount of articulation you will be able to experience will be minor. I would likely mount through the top of the box and use a rubber washer like a body mount as an isolator. The number of flex action cycles that you would need to exert to get to metal fatigue would take tens of thousands of miles at least.


    Posted from the TJJ App for iPhone & iPad
     
  24. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    Whoops, I guess I didn't tell you, my bed tilts up so I cannot mount to the bottom of it. The boxes have to mount to the frame rails. I cannot run steel braces across the frame rails from side to side either. Too much stuff in the way.

    Right now they are rigid mounted, but I know that is wrong.
     
  25. Deucedreamer
    Joined: Jan 11, 2010
    Posts: 518

    Deucedreamer
    Member
    from BC Canada

    If your hinge idea ends up not working out, you might want to think about hinging them on the side and have them open like a barn door. Something like on newer Nemar Motorhomes. Just a thought. I like your idea though, it's really cool. And wow, what a feat of engineering. Good job and good luck. I hope it works out
     
  26. LN7 NUT
    Joined: Sep 9, 2010
    Posts: 2,164

    LN7 NUT
    Member

    How much off roading do you plan on doing?

    I think with them mounted normally the minimal amount of twist you will encounter will never be an issue even with the occasional curb.

    ...unless you decide to take this truck down the sides of mountains and over felled trees.
     
  27. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    On my COE, the cab was originally mounted with springs slid over the mounting bolts. Henry knew the frames twisted.

    The worst road conditions this will probably see are car shows in the dirt lots, driving over curbs, and getting to the the barn find with no driveway. But if the frame cannot twist, then stress cracks can form. It has to do with the truck rear suspension being so stiff, designed to prevent trucks from rolling over on curves. Stress cracks are not as big an issue on cars with boxed frames, I think because the suspension is far softer.


    The door hinges I designed will work fine bolted to the insides of the box. My issue is that I had the rear box-to-frame mounting bracket running through the back wall of the box and plug welded to the inside of the box, right where the hinges need to mount. That gave the box a clean look outside. I will move the mounting bracket to the outside of the box and hide it from view a little with the additional of the 5" long box side extender I already planned to build.​
     
  28. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    Internet searching solved the fame twist and box mount problem...

    I have a sub-frame under the tilt bed, made of 3"x3" square tubing. It is a perimeter frame with several cross-members. It is mounted on top of the COE frame and the tilt bed hinges off it. Because of the square tubing shape, it will resist twisting.

    If I mount the boxes rigid to this sub-frame, and mount the sub-frame to the COE with spring loaded mounts, then the boxes and sub-frame will not twist but the COE frame still can.

    Spring mounts will be similar to this except that the upper bracket will have longer sides to slide next to lower bracket and capture it to stop shear across the bolts.

    [​IMG]
     
  29. 50 chevy matt
    Joined: Nov 27, 2012
    Posts: 129

    50 chevy matt
    Member
    from UK

    Sorry if my post came across wrong, i have read all the pages on this build thread upto now and thought it was easier than maybe i was thinking :confused:
     
  30. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    Hey, it is easy...once you know how. :)
     
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