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Projects COE build thread - "Git r' done"

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by kscarguy, Feb 14, 2013.

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  1. gatz
    Joined: Jun 2, 2011
    Posts: 1,485

    gatz
    Member

    the gas springs don't need to go past centerline....only near it, unless you want them to actually keep the door closed in lieu of using a latch of some kind.

    What is the green object in your sketch ? Another spring? You won't need one there or the related bellcrank pushing on the upper link assembly.....the 2 gas springs on the lower links will suffice, as long as everything is tied together.

    Suggest making a angle-iron connector between the upper & lower arms (where they are shown in your sketch attached to the door) so that the door is adjustable in the vertical plane, but the geometry of the linkage stays the same. Also makes it easier to get final position.
     
  2. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    Let me review to see if I have this correct...connect the hinges together at the door with a bracket and then mount the door to this bracket so it can slide up and down on grooves cut into it. Similar idea to a GM hood hinge where the hood slides on slots in the hinge, right?

    That is a good idea. I wonder if I can make it fit? There isn't much distance between the drip rail on the box and the door jamb. I only have 5/8" of space to fit the hinges between them. I could refabricate the door jamb panel to make the space wider...I'd rather not as it is already bent up and I don't have access to a sheet-metal brake anymore.

    The green thing is an actuator...just playing with the idea of mounting one so I can open the doors at a push of a button. With actuators, I could delete the spring cylinders.

    I ordered springs with a 60 pound strength, this lead to a 3-5/8" fulcrum to balance the door at 30 degrees of opening (hump point). I am going to return them and order 90 pound springs., this will let me use a shorter fulcrum. A shorter fulcrum means less spring less travel and also a better mounting location to stop the rotation past centerline.
     
  3. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    I was thinking... My first design connects the spring cylinders to the hinges. That limits the "box" mounting locations because I need to stay out of the back 5" space where the boxes will to be notched for the future rear axle relocation. However, if I mount the cylinders on bellcranks welded to the center connecting shaft, then I could move the cylinder s towards the center area of the box. On the back cylinder , I could connect it to the box wall in the 5" notch area. The front mount might be an issue as it is left floating in space.

    By moving them inwards, I gain 5" of box depth to mount them and can build in a lot more adjustment holes. The bar is going to be way up at the top of the box above the drip rail, the brackets would hang down 3"-5" from bar centerline so only a few inches would show when the door is open....worth a thought.



    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  4. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    I did a re-design as shown above and it works SO much better to use the longer struts. I have far more room to mount it without bottoming or being too short. I might do a hybrid of the two designs. one strut mounted on a hinge and the other on the center bar to shift it past the 5" notch.
     
  5. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    One last design issue to tackle. The connecting bar length needs to be adjustable. Too short and it will pinch the upper hinges together, too wide and it will wedge the upper hinge pivots inside the box.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  6. I like this idea too. Can you mount the hinge and cylinder parts to a flanged boxed section that mounts to the inside of the belly box walls and covers the whole deal? You never know when some "valuable" or structural item in the storage box is going to shift over and get into your hinge mechanism while driving.
     
  7. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    Fan Attic - That is an interesting idea. Since I need a panel to protect the hinges from the contents, why not mount the hinges on the inside of that panel? I'll definitely have to consider that.
     
  8. gatz
    Joined: Jun 2, 2011
    Posts: 1,485

    gatz
    Member

    It shouldn't have to be adjustable once the distances are figured out.
    And, if the "spuds" are made somewhat lengthy, say 1" to 1 1/2" long; the notches in the tube as per your sketch can be made to accommodate them.

    Also, if the connector arms are made with ample length; say 6" or 8" long, then they will flex for any discrepancy when they are connected to the upper arms.....of course this depends on how thick of material is used, but you've got plenty of room.

    However, if there is still a need to make it adjustable, the connecting bar can be 2-piece a'y with one tube telescoping inside the other.

    If round tubing is going to be used, a Coiled Spring Pin (in preference to a Roll Pin) can be used to keep them aligned. The outer tube can be slotted; with just a little clearance for the Pin, and the inner tube drilled/reamed for a nice fit with the Pin.

    Alternately, if square tubing is your choice, there are sources for that purpose, and they fit nicely. The advantage over round tubing being no slots or holes to worry about. Check local steel supplier. McMaster-Carr has some too, see pages 1914-1915
     
  9. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    More good points. I like the pin and slot idea. and it made me think that the connecting bar pieces do not have to be clamped super tight, just made so it won't rotate. Even a polt instead of a pin would work good.

    Today I made a mockup out of plywood and weighed down the door section. I clamped it to the COE bed (what will I do for a workbench when it is painted?) I ran a block of wood from the hinge to a bathroom scale to simulate the strut. I wanted to test to see how much weight was being transfered through...I could not get the scale to read correctly. It said 24 lbs, then 37, then 18... I pulled on the wood and it took much more force than that to move it....guess I shouldn't have dropped the wifes scale. Camera is on the blitz too.
     
  10. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    [​IMG]

    Look close and you will see my trailer load leveler bar taped to the door to even out the load. I taped a huge handfull of lead sticks to the door to increase the weight to about 15 pounds. With a simple 4:1 ratio of arm length, the scale should have read around 60-80.

    The lower arm had very little pressure on it at this point. It was almost loose.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  11. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    I bought a CAD software program to create the drawings of the brackets. It has to be better to cut the parts using a computer file rather than a line drawing scanned into a computer. I can also make them far more accurate.

    Best part is the software was rather inexpensive. Thirty dollars for a TurboCAD 2D program. It is so much easier to use than the old CAD software where you had to memorize every command.

    I am moving forward with building this setup and hope to have the parts drawn up, materials purchased and everything delivered to the water jet guys so they be done by the middle of next week.
     
  12. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    My wife stepped on her bathroom scale this morning and said, "this is reading weird."

    .....the switch on the back was flipped over to kilograms!
     
  13. I know you're working on the bed details but if you get time I'm sure a few of us would appreciate seeing your steering column to steering box solution. My son and I have '55 GM LCF on a '81 GM 1 Ton front end that still hasn't had that puzzle solved yet.
    Pic's of the final bed box door hinges would also be great. Really enjoy watching your project go together! Please keep sharing!
     
  14. Also, that bed surround is very nice. Is that 2"x 4"x .120"?
     
  15. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    COE steering in a nutshell. Two Idler arms holding the early (mid 1970's) GM center link, Car steering box on inside of frame using a custom Pitman arm (made from center spline out of car pitman arm, welded into new blank, length to match truck pitman arm - Pete & Jakes hotrods can build this for you, they have the correct taper ream and experience), a 1-TON 4x4 drag link connected from new pitman arm to a tapered hole in a 5/8 thick x 2"tall x 10 long plate welded to center link. PRO welded!!! no room for backyard stuff here. Take your time and pre-heat everything for a long time before doing any welding to avoid cracks. Let it cool slow too. Keeping low heat on it will slow the cooling process. Drag link length is very heavy duty and adjustable for length.

    Steering box is now separated from center link and can be placed at a steeper angle...Van boxes might work too. With the car box mounted on the inside of the frame it lines up with the steering column. Connect the steering box to column with DD shaft and steering joints. Works great on my 41.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  16. MT Apache
    Joined: Aug 8, 2011
    Posts: 9

    MT Apache
    Member

    kscarguy, Love the work on the truck. The engineering you have going into these door hinges is awesome. You might check out these guys, http://www.allegiscorp.com/jsp/default.jsp, they have a list of door assists, seals, and other hardware, I think you can purchase from them with a credit card, if not they will get you a dealer in your area.
     
  17. So the center link carries the inboard ends of the tie rods and connects to the front steer spindles. Mid engine so no steering column interference? Very nice. We've got our original SBC up in the stock location so we'll need to offset the column but the linkage lash up sounds interesting.
    Cool project!
     
  18. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    I guess it's too late to back out now and hinge the tops up like a cooler? (HA!) That wold have been easier.

    The weight of the upholstry panel is holding me up. I have no idea how much they will weigh and it will effect the strut mounting bolt location on the hinge. Each additional pound of door weight changes the mount location by 1/8" (Really only an issue for the "hump" balance point.) I can fine tune it somewhat with multiple holes, but I need to be close.

    The panel will be about 20" x 45". I am guessing about 4 pounds. 2.5 pounds for the 1/8" board and another 1.5 pounds for the foam and material. Does that sound right?
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  19. PKap
    Joined: Jan 5, 2011
    Posts: 593

    PKap
    Member
    from Alberta

    If your door is opening the way you propose, why upholster at all? You will only see it from the other side of the truck. If you want to dress it up from that view, what about a thin polished aluminum? Then you add maybe 2 lbs, but no interference with the mounting points.


    Posted from the TJJ App for iPhone & iPad
     
  20. xtremek
    Joined: May 1, 2011
    Posts: 73

    xtremek
    Member

    ^Same question. I understand it's a matter of taste, that's why we do what we do. But why upholester?
     
  21. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    I've run into a few more snags. The idea of bolting an additional bracket attached to the end of the hinge arms to maintain the geometry and then putting slots in the bracket to bolt through into the doors is a good idea, but there isn't room for the lower slot without dropping the door down. I also don't know a good way to attach them together so they are snug, but still able to rotate.


    So I came up with an alternate idea. Use the bracket as a spacer that maintains geometry and run shoulder bolts through the hinge arms then through the bracket into slotted holes in the doorjamb and finally tighten up against captive plates that can slide up and down on the backside of the door jamb. It is the cleanest idea I can think of that can be easily built.

    Actually, moving the plate inside the door and threading the holes
    would be cleaner...

    [​IMG]

    I have to find the correct shoulder bolts to use. I need something with a narrow head, but with substancial size. I am thinking a seat belt bolt from a mid 60's camaro would work. I'd like to find something a little cleaner like these.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  22. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    I could really use help finding these bolts. The project is stuck until I have them.

    Here is what I need:

    Shoulder Diameter: 1/2" to 3/4"
    Shoulder length: 1/2"
    Head thickness: 1/8" max.

    Anyone have any ideas????
     
  23. daddio211
    Joined: Aug 26, 2008
    Posts: 5,998

    daddio211
    Member

    Camaro bolts should be easy to find at Year One, Classic Industries, etc., but I have no idea what else to recommend. Keep up the great work!

    Sent from my DROID device using the TJJ mobile app
     
  24. I save seat belt bolts from everything I strip and have for years. There are a lot of applications that meet your requirement, in hex, allen and torx heads. They are usually TIGHT so if you go to pull your own take the long handled ratchet, and the good bits and sockets.
     
  25. Lobucrod
    Joined: Mar 22, 2006
    Posts: 4,120

    Lobucrod
    Alliance Vendor
    from Texas

    You might look into the shouldered bolts that held the hood hinges to the hood on lots of late 40's early 50's cars. My 50 chevy has this type. May be too small for your use though. I believe the thread size is 5/16 std and the bolt head size is either 9/16 or 5/8. the shoulder may not be bigger than 3/8".
     
  26. moparmuscle1
    Joined: Nov 15, 2012
    Posts: 85

    moparmuscle1
    Member

  27. carnut14
    Joined: Oct 23, 2006
    Posts: 28

    carnut14
    Member
    from so-cal

    accurate screw is a good source for shoulder bolts. If your worried about head height can you use a csk head?
     
  28. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    Thanks everyone. The reason for the shallow head is the limited available space between the door jamb and the box jamb. I have 11/16" (absolute Maximum) between them. This is critical when the door is closed. If I use 5/16 material for the hinge, then that leaves 3/8" for an air gap, the bolt head and any washers, etc. to fit. Basically, if the bolt head is the standard 1/4" tall, It will probably hit the box.

    I measured everything closly and the bolt needs to be 1/2" from top of bolt to bottom of shoulder (max). I might have to have the arms machined to recess the bolt into them. I did find a jeep tailgate bolt that looks correct but still trying to get dimensions.

    The geometry was easy...these details are terrible!
     

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    Last edited: Feb 27, 2013
  29. kscarguy
    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,571

    kscarguy
    Member

    I think I have a winner. Off a MTD push lawnmower no less. Used on the level adjuster. Keep your fingers crossed. I have one ordered locally. Specs say 1/2" diameter / .385 length. Perfect

    FYI - I stopped by another water jet company and they are doing extremely cool things with laser engraving. I now have ideas to make my dash controls labeled and lit up. They gave me the nickle tour...it took 50 minutes! Wow.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 27, 2013
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