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Technical Clutch chatter in the '57 Chevy

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by The HellyDid, Jun 3, 2015.

  1. The HellyDid
    Joined: May 1, 2011
    Posts: 124

    The HellyDid
    Member
    from Florida

    Calling all gear box guru's. I've been chasing this clutch chatter around for way to long now. The engine is a newer crate 350 and trans is a Saginaw 4 speed. I pulled said engine/trans to do some painting and change the clutch. I installed a new Hayes flywheel, McLeod clutch assembly and new brass pilot. While the trans was out I did a re-seal and noticed play in the input shaft (see video). I reinstalled engine and I still have the same chatter. I took some video's so you can check it out. Could it be the trans? The engine has new stock (front) engine mounts and new bell housing mounts. In the one video you can also see no trans movement so I doubt the install of a rear cross member, or should I still install one.
     
  2. That's some ugly shudder right there .

    The front bearing looks a bit looser than I would be comfortable with , though the shaft is supported by the pilot bearing in the crank.

    I had a similar issue in one of my cars and it was dirty fingers on the new clutch lining !!
     
  3. BEERMAN67
    Joined: Jan 8, 2015
    Posts: 5

    BEERMAN67

    Have u checked the rearend
     
  4. After you put the new pilot bushing in did you check to see that it was not to tight on the input shaft, some times you can smash it a little and the shaft will be tight, but it should ware it self in after you drive it some. Also like dusty-nz said if you get any oil or grease on the disc it will chatter, and that can happen if you put to much grease in the throw out bearing recess and it will throw it around when you fire the engine, I would pull the transmission and clutch, use some brake clean and clean every thing like the flywheel, disc, clutch plate. Just 2 cents worth to check out. Good luck.
     
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  5. slack
    Joined: Aug 18, 2014
    Posts: 532

    slack
    Member

    I'll be watching this one closely. I have an OT PU that I have had 3 clutch assemblies in and can't get rid of the chatter. On the latest one I used a needle bearing/pilot bearing (prefer solid bronze, but) and that cured it for a time but it is now creeping back into my life.
     
  6. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,209

    56sedandelivery
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    My guess was too high gearing in the rear end also (do you know the ratio?), but judging by the extension housing on your transmission, you have a 3.11 or 3.50 first gear ratio; enough to compensate for almost any too high of rear end gears situation. How "new" of a crate 350? IF it's a very late style 350, it could possibly take a neutral balance dampener/balancer, and an externally balanced flywheel; if it had the wrong flywheel, it could cause chatter, but other issues would also be present. The replacement, stock style mounts for our Tri-Five cars are really cheap and flimsy; you may benefit from a transmission crossmember mount also to help stabilize things. Was your car always a stick shift, or was it converted at some point. A poor swap could cause problems with the clutch linkage. An aftermarket, performance clutch could cause your problem if it's "too much" clutch. I had chatter problems with a new, Borg & Beck style, Hays clutch assembly in an OT car years ago; it was finally resolved with a stock type, replacement,. diaphragm clutch. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
  7. The HellyDid
    Joined: May 1, 2011
    Posts: 124

    The HellyDid
    Member
    from Florida

    The thing is it did the same thing with the old clutch
     
  8. The HellyDid
    Joined: May 1, 2011
    Posts: 124

    The HellyDid
    Member
    from Florida

    Yes, it has some lash as well
     
  9. elba
    Joined: Feb 9, 2013
    Posts: 613

    elba
    Member

    Check the part on the front of the transmission the throw out bearing rides on. Mine was worn which causes the throw out bearing to contact the pressure plate fingers on an angle and LOTS OF CHATTER. I replaced clutches, bearings, pressure plates and it ended up being a 10 dollar part.
     
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  10. noddaz
    Joined: Sep 9, 2014
    Posts: 12

    noddaz

    Elba might have something here... Has the front bearing retainer been repaired? It looks a little strange in the 3rd video.
     
  11. Andamo
    Joined: Jan 10, 2006
    Posts: 502

    Andamo
    Member

    Motor mounts tight and none broken ?
     
  12. elba
    Joined: Feb 9, 2013
    Posts: 613

    elba
    Member

    After watching video 3 I see some dark areas on the area your throw out bearing rides on. Take that bearing and slide it on the snout. As you know, it should be just loose enough to slide. No caddywompous !
     
  13. The HellyDid
    Joined: May 1, 2011
    Posts: 124

    The HellyDid
    Member
    from Florida

    It was fine, I installed it with an old input shaft
     
  14. The HellyDid
    Joined: May 1, 2011
    Posts: 124

    The HellyDid
    Member
    from Florida

    1. rear ratio is 3.55
    2. 2.56 (0 ring)
    3. it's an 880 crate (one piece rear main), I would think 2012 that's when the car was finished, looks new inside..yes externally balanced...I bought the right flywheel, it did it with the old cast unit too
    4. I'm going to install a cross memeber next
    5. No it was an automatic originally, I have video of the clutch fork no movement there. After market Hayes billet flywheel, McLeod 11" diaphram clutch kit, brass pilot, car had a 12" trick B&B clutch before.
     
  15. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Long story, but read it:

    I did the same job on a 350 4speed in a 1966 pickup that a local guy has had since 1970. He had chatter for some years ongoing. He spent a lot of money at a local trans shop that has a very good reputation.

    They resurfaced the flywheel twice in 3 years, also rebuilt the muncie, rebuilt the rear and installed a posi, etc, etc. Chatter never went away completely.

    He later had a accident and bent the frame, and he had me put a mint frame in it. I decided to scrap the bell mounts in favor of a rear trans mount. Chatter was a lot better, but still did it on uphill start-offs...

    A year later, he then brought me a new iron repro flywheel, new clutch kit, etc. The first thing I did was use a dial indicator on the old flywheel before I removed it. It was out 16 thou at the outermost edge of where the disc rides.

    I then put the new wheel on to check runout again. It was still 16 thou out. Then I checked runout on crank flange with wheel removed....that was the problem; it was a very slight bend in the flange.

    He finally told me that the motor was a mail order remanufactured engine, shipped on a pallet. It must have been bumped or hit during shipping years ago.

    I hand filed and dressed the flange, as it was only out about 1-1/2 thou, and the chatter is completely gone for 5 years now. I'm not BS'ing, he came back to see me with real tears in his eyes, telling me how grateful he was to finally fix his showtruck.
     
  16. classic gary
    Joined: Sep 24, 2009
    Posts: 497

    classic gary
    Member

    try installing a "torque strap" on it from the cylinder head to the frame. the engine will "rotate" about the crank axis, when it does that, the relationship of the mechanical clutch linkage changes and that moves the t-o bearing and locks/unlocks the pressure plate from the clutch disc. Explained it rather long windedly, but i used one in a '57/283/4 speed/posi, way back in the early 70's and no more clutch chatter. Just a thought.
     
  17. Yeah, after watching the video, that's clearly not a case of drivetrain loading and unloading as with a bad motor mount. The vibration begins at the very start of clutch engagement before any loads are imparted. I'd be looking at flywheel runout as F&J has said. Could be a bent crank flange as F&J encountered or maybe something as simple as a little dirt between the crank and flywheel...maybe a shitty [warped or out of round] flywheel, loose or incorrect flywheel bolts with no shoulder....needs more checking.
    Can you video flywheel while engine is running to check for wobble? Grab flywheel from underneath car [with engine off] and give it a good shake forward and back?
     
  18. The HellyDid
    Joined: May 1, 2011
    Posts: 124

    The HellyDid
    Member
    from Florida

    If memory serves me well I believe there was a little movement there. I'm going to make a video from underneath clutch so to look up at t/o bearing & flywheel area....
     
  19. Rocky I put a new name brand clutch in an OT truck while I was in mexico and we chased a problem for days, transmission shafts flywheel and etc. Then we look at the pressure plate a little closer and it had some broken springs.

    Edit damnit:

    I just looked at the first vid, my willys does that I thought I had a weak pressure plate but figured out that my rear brakes are stuck.
     
  20. The HellyDid
    Joined: May 1, 2011
    Posts: 124

    The HellyDid
    Member
    from Florida

    Sounds reasonable, I'll have to check that out
     
  21. The HellyDid
    Joined: May 1, 2011
    Posts: 124

    The HellyDid
    Member
    from Florida

    #1. Yes the very start, now when your letting the clutch out and you can get past gritting your teeth it will even out and be smooth as silk...Also when your driving and come to a down shift it will shake also unless you let it out quick...
    #2. Like I said it did it with the old flywheel, PP as well, infact I changed the bolts as well as it looked like someone had ground the heads down with a grinder :\
    #3. Yes my next step will be a video from underneath looking up at the t/o bearing a flywheel area.
     
  22. The HellyDid
    Joined: May 1, 2011
    Posts: 124

    The HellyDid
    Member
    from Florida

    Until tonight to get that other video I also have this jem
     
  23. Boryca
    Joined: Jul 18, 2011
    Posts: 654

    Boryca
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Detroit

    Simple question: does it chatter/wobble when the clutch is fully engaged and you're moving down the road? That would lead to a trans issue.

    Otherwise I would be more inclined to think you don't have full engagement in the pilot bushing when the trans is installed, or you have an off-kilter flywheel and clutch mating surface. Are either of them glazed? Keep in mind that a new part doesn't mean a good part. I'd be checking that flywheel for flat surfaces.

    Mike
     
  24. You have jacked it up and made sure that the wheels turn freely correct? I know you have, it took me a while to figure my Willys out though. ;)
     
  25. 40fordtudor
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,503

    40fordtudor
    Member

    I had a similar problem with my '57---it was a .060 over 283 with a 4-speed Saginaw. Dirt and grease deposit on the crank flange where the flywheel attaches. I surfaced the flywheel after I cleaned the flange and VOILA!! Circa 1982.
     
  26. The HellyDid
    Joined: May 1, 2011
    Posts: 124

    The HellyDid
    Member
    from Florida

    No, infact when you let it out past the shaking point it's smooth. I'm going to check flywheel run out here tonight of tomorrow. Clutch is new not glazed, remember it did the same thing with the old clutch.
     
  27. The HellyDid
    Joined: May 1, 2011
    Posts: 124

    The HellyDid
    Member
    from Florida

    Yes I have...in the video's the emergency brake is on but it will do this when pulling away from any stop.
     
  28. slack
    Joined: Aug 18, 2014
    Posts: 532

    slack
    Member

    I hope not but it sounds like you read my story right down to the crate engine. I have tears in my eyes now, just thinking about the possibility of no more chatter.
     
  29. The HellyDid
    Joined: May 1, 2011
    Posts: 124

    The HellyDid
    Member
    from Florida

    Okay here's some more video's,
    #1 there is some movement in the t/o bearing on the bearing retainer
    #2 no movement in t/o bearing while chattering
    #3 video from the side of the flywheel
    I did try letting the clutch out in 2nd gear, exact same chatter....but when I did the same thing in 3rd and 4th it was real had to get it to do it, you had to barely and mean barely let it out to get it to do it but it wasn't really enough to measure...after that it was really smooth.


     
  30. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,209

    56sedandelivery
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This video; it looks like there is little to no clearance between the flywheel teeth and the lowermost, starter bolt` boss. Could that be contacting intermediately? It's hard to tell if the "chatter" is chatter, or an imbalance going on. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     

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