Hot Rods Chev bell housing mounted starter problem, help!

Im just finishing a '55 chev 3100. It's a 400 SBC with a truck bell housing, side mount. 168 tooth flywheel, 11" clutch, new bell housing mounted starter, big motor. I'm using the stock tin on the bottom of the bell housing. Problem is the starter wants to spin before it engages the ring gear, so it grinds the starter gear against the ring gear. If I manually turn the engine (with the balancer bolt) about 20-30 degrees the starter will engage and start the motor however next time the same problem, grinding the gears and no start.
the bell housing hole is 3", as is the lip on the starter nose cone. When installed the starter gear to ring gear space is about 3/8". The top hole in the bell housing is not threaded, the two lower holes are threaded. Ring gear does not show signs of excessive wear.
Any ideas would be appreciated on what could be causing this......

 

Do you have a good strong battery,and really good connections including engine ground to frame?Is the solenoid new?Sometimes the old ones get burned inside ,and that causes resistance.If theres resistance of any kind everything happens slower,and the starter is turning before it gets pushed in to the ring gear.

 

Sounds like you have a bad spot on the ring gear. It is hard to believe but most engines stop at the same spot every time you turn them off. You can't turn the flywheel one bolt hole on a 400, so you are stuck buying another flywheel.

 

Irishsteve, Battery is new and charged. New ground straps frame to motor and frame to body. Solenoid is new (came with starter) Yes, definitely the starter is spinning before the gears engage! Starter motor sounds weird too, deep and growly, rather than sort of high and free (does this make sense?) as I expect a new starter motor to sound. Like it's stressed.
oldolds, yes, engines do stop at or near the same spot every time. I don't know why that is. The ring gear just doesn't look that bad, however right where the starter gear has been hitting (so far, maybe a dozen times?) the ring gear is shiny. Doesn't seem like it's enough to cause the problem but I don't know how sensitive ring gears are to this type of wear.....
Questions: is there any sort of alignment problem possibility? Seems like there is no adjustment possible......but I have never encountered this issue before so never tried. Are there different bell housing mounted starter nose cones? Or are they all the same?

 

OH and I forgot to mention, I sourced the flywheel from a friend, used. Also, the ring gear runs so close to the starter nose cone that it actually rubbed the paint off one spot. I've never really looked at this alignment before so not sure if it should run that close.

 

What year is the starter motor? Best to use a 55-56, as the plunger arm is adjustable; you can lengthen or shorten the throw to better engage the flywheel. Can't say why you're having this problem, but it might be a solution. And just to be safe, are you using a 400 flywheel; they are externally balanced, and if you use a neutral balanced flywheel, you're going to have a bad vibration that can destroy your bearings/crank.
I am Butch/56sedandelivery.

 

It may be the starter itself dragging.They used the same starter from 57 up to about 72 on trucks.Make sure you get one with the hi-torque body.The front tab for the solenoid is forward of the barrel on the step down.I have this bellhousing in a 32 Ford,and I never really liked the OEM starter since it cant be shimmed at all.I ended up using a Powermaster that bolts straight up to the block.I can set the gear depth with shims.It works fine with the early bell.and clears everything.

 

Hey Butch, thanks for the info. Yes, using a 400 flywheel. and it's been balanced along with the pressure plate together. First I heard of the adjustable plunger arm. I'll look into that for sure. I'll post what I find out.

 

I posted pics of the starter. I'm fairly certain it's the 57 to 72 truck model, as I wasn't aware of the differences of the earlier ones (55-56) It does seem that the starter motor is dragging. But not really sure, it just doesn't sound right. And it doesn't appear to be shimable. If I went to a block mounted starter what about the front bell housing cover? Would it still fit?

 

I am not sure about the truck bellhousing, but I used a block mount high torque starter on my 56 car and it has the original 56 bellhousing.

 

Where did you get the starter ?

Find a lot of the junk made in China is just that. Junk out of the box!
It’s getting hard to find starter and alternator rebuilders now as for the common stuff it’s cheaper to buy Chinese junk the rebuild the old stuff.

Get the starter checked and maybe find an old unit and get it rebuilt .

 

Where's the bevel on the edge of each tooth?

 

Disconect the power from starter at the solenoid and see if the starter drive is extending all the way out. With the bottom cover off watch ring gear run out. You said if you turn the fly wheel it will start.

 

Just few weeks ago the same problem on a 70 Corvette 4 speed ,the off-the-shelf starter nose was different than the original starter, I changed out the nose and plunger from original stater ,chevy over the years did use diffrent length nose on some diffrent Bell housings

 

Usually, to use a block mounted starter with a bell-housing mounted starter setup, you have to remove the lower/innermost bolt hole for the bell-housing mounter starter motor. Sometimes, you have to grind some of the inner bell-housing for clearance; there's always the exception. To remove that lower/inner bolt hole boss, guys have used hacksaws, O-A torches, and even hammers. How did you manage to bolt up- a truck bell-housing in a Tri-Five? They are at a different "angle", trucks use a single bolt, passenger cars use two bolts. Did you just drill another hole in the mount, and remove the locating "pin" on the truck bell? I am Butch/56sedandelivery.

 

I use those three bolt starters a lot. and never have any problem. And I build my own starters from the best parts of used starters. Use a genuine GM nose. install a new bushing and attach the Bigger armature and field coils to it. That top starter flange has threads. you run the top bolt from the rear of the bell and thread it into the topmost starter flange. its a longer bolt than the lower two.

 

every 3 bolt bell housing mounted starter I ever had needed the top bolt flange ground down so it doesn't hang up on the block.Got to the point rebuilds out of the box already had the flat spot ground down.apparently there must have been a slight change in the block post 57?

 

Looks like the flywheel is hitting the nosecone. Have you checked clearance at several points around the flywheel? Might have to do some clearancing to the nosecone.

Sent from my SM-G892A using The H.A.M.B. mobile app

 

I am guessing that a manual flywheel for a 400 would be difficult to source. If you have a torch and access to some dry ice, you can remove the ring gear, flip it, and reinstall it.
I haven't done one in years, but it isn't that difficult to do.
Here is a youtube link that shows one method.


Bob

 

I didn't have the correct starter end housing so I used one that bolts to the block and ground out enough clearance in the bellhousing.

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you can flip the ring gear over, too....so the unused side of the teeth is now being used. Pretty easy to do if you can put the ring gear in the oven after you remove it from the flywheel.

I'd suspect that starter, too, because of the chinese rebuilt appearance. But I might be an old geezer.

 

Those square cut teeth on the starter drive are one issue, the don't slip past the teeth on the ring gear smoothly enough.
I'd slide under it and rotate the crank to look the teeth on the ring gear all the way around. If it's bad, as the others said it doesn't take a lot of effort to flip the ring gear over or replace it with a new one. A new ring gear isn't too spendy though.

 

the teeth on the starter drive gear look ok to me....

 

great picture of a properly beveled gear, now that I see it, yes it appears the starter gear I have is not beveled at all!

 

Don't need to be beveled Jim?

 

Ha! You might be however it's the old geezers that know.

 

the teeth look beveled to me...how about you search for pictures of new starter drives for that starter, and see if the teeth on them look any different?


but what about the ring gear? with the starter removed, after trying to start the engine and it just spins, take the starter out and take a picture of the flywheel through the starter hole. I'll bet the teeth on that section of the ring gear are worn away, the corners are not sharp.

 

I saw a little rub on the nose, it's fairly minor but I wasn't sure how close the nose should be to the ring gear. It's easy to take a little off. Shouldn't have to do this but it might be made in China....don't know.

Good stuff, I'll check that.

 

With the power disconnected how do I extend the drive?
Yes, the motor fires immediately after I turn the motor over manually and the starter engages. About 20-30 degrees each time and starter engages.

 

Try a different starter and if the same thing happens its the Flywheel Ring gear.