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Technical Champ Halibrand rear noise

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Jason147, Mar 5, 2015.

  1. Happydaze
    Joined: Aug 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,141

    Happydaze
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Not suggesting that a Halibrand Champ is identical to a Winters Champ as in identical / interchangeability, but the similarities are obvious and I'm sure much of the general information applies to both, so you could digest this

    http://www.wintersperformance.com/

    Set up and FAQ stuff in the downloadable Street Rod catalogue.

    I have a Winters Champ and if the adapters on the Hali are anything similar then the differential is a sealed unit and there's no fluid in the axle tubes, unlike a Ford banjo or a Hali v8 center. The wheel bearings will be the sealed for life type too.

    I'd be interested in knowing the degree of similarity between the Winetrs and Halibrand if anyone knows.

    Chris
     
  2. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,761

    GearheadsQCE
    Alliance Vendor

    Trying to understand this, "ring gear bearing retainer"?
    Pinion bearing retainer, maybe?
    How did you 'fix' it?
     
  3. Jason147
    Joined: Nov 5, 2014
    Posts: 138

    Jason147

    Yes there was gear oil in the diff. Yes I filled it back up. I'm capable of doing work on this car myself. It's just that I don't know anything about QC stuff.
    Front rubber I just got changed, rear is in the process. Actually looking for tires but not having much luck with the size. Putting into gear, she clunks.
     
  4. Limey Steve
    Joined: Apr 4, 2005
    Posts: 1,523

    Limey Steve
    Alliance Vendor
    from Whittier

    Yes pinion retainer, it was late last night when I wrote that.
     
  5. Limey Steve
    Joined: Apr 4, 2005
    Posts: 1,523

    Limey Steve
    Alliance Vendor
    from Whittier

    I'd be pulling off the side bells once the axles are removed to check what's going on, it's only nuts & bolts, retain all the parts for each side separately & photograph as you go, It will be rewarding in the end to DIY it.
     
    Jason147 likes this.
  6. Pewsplace
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 2,799

    Pewsplace
    Member

    I think Magoo used the Jaguar differential in his rear ends. Do as Steve said and then you will become and expert on the QC rear axle. Also, that car should be kept in top condition as a Magoo built car has a place in history that most older folks know about. He is still alive living in Phoenix.
     
    Jason147 and Allmotor like this.
  7. Allmotor
    Joined: Jan 7, 2007
    Posts: 128

    Allmotor
    Member

    I agree with Pewsplace, after you solve the issue with the QC, spend some time cleaning the car and the suspension and make your grandfather proud.
     
  8. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,761

    GearheadsQCE
    Alliance Vendor

    Okay Lynn, you threw me a curve here. I didn't know there was a Jag differential that would work in a QC. Tell us more.
     
  9. Isn't Jag (diff) stuff Dana?
     
  10. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,761

    GearheadsQCE
    Alliance Vendor

    Jason,
    Before you pull the rear end out and apart, take out the change gears, and try to wiggle the pinion shaft (the top one) up and down and side to side. ANY movement means that it has to come apart.

    Twist it back and forth. You should have minimal backlash. Halibrand said they can be as tight as .001".

    If the pinion moves for and aft then you might be able to fix it by tightening the bearing retainer (the 7 screws around the pinion). If they are loose at all, you should take them out, clean the tapped holes in the case (carb clean). Slide the pinion retainer out. See if the pinion bearing is a ball type or roller bearing.
    There were two pinion bearing plates. The earlier one (pre 1985) was for ball bearings. The depth from the small diameter end to the flange surface should be .785" the roller bearing one should be .920". It is rare, but I've seen the parts mixed up allowing the pinion to walk back in the case.
    To reassemble use Loctite primer and red Loctite. Halibrand did not specify a torque but I use 25 in/lbs. If the pinion retainer is tight and you have too much backlash, you will have to disassemble the unit.

    Drain the gear lube, both cavities. Pull the rear out of the car and get back here. WE WILL GET THIS FIXED!
     
    rpm56 likes this.
  11. Pewsplace
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 2,799

    Pewsplace
    Member

    I have never used one, but they are a Dana unit. Magoo and Tom Walsh both used these units in the 80's. I will have to find out more from Tom as I think he still uses them when he can find them. Machine work required - Champ only.
    As you know, the differential is the hard part for the Champ rear end. Frank at Quickchange Exchange made them for Halibrand until them went BK and left him holding the inventory unpaid for…too bad as they were good units.
     
  12. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,761

    GearheadsQCE
    Alliance Vendor

    Yep, Frank is a great guy. I named my company Quickchange Exchange before I knew about him. That's why I added Gearhead's to it. The Diamond Track is my favorite. Does he have any NOS units?

    I'm curious about the Jag diffs. What years and what models? Are they open or limited slips?
    Check your PMs.
     
  13. Jason147
    Joined: Nov 5, 2014
    Posts: 138

    Jason147

    Man you guys are all so cool. I will go ahead and check the pinion shaft, pull the axles and check all the stuff like you suggested. My goal to this car is to get it back in top notch shape, take it to shows and have the sentimental reward. I live in Vancouver, Wa and we have the Rod Run in August I would love to attend.
     
  14. GearheadsQCE
    Joined: Mar 23, 2011
    Posts: 2,761

    GearheadsQCE
    Alliance Vendor

    Something I should explain in a little more detail:
    When checking the backlash, .001" is barely perceptible. If you can feel it click from side to side noticeably, it is probably too much. :)
     
    Jason147 and pitman like this.
  15. flamedabone
    Joined: Aug 3, 2001
    Posts: 4,945

    flamedabone
    Member

    Any luck on this video? The noise has only been described a s "horrible" and "clicking". I'm not ready to have you take this whole rear end apart just yet, just not enough information.

    Send me the video if you want.

    flamedabone@Hotmail.com

    -Abone.
     
  16. Jason147
    Joined: Nov 5, 2014
    Posts: 138

    Jason147

    I sent the video to you Abone! Thanks for watching it!
     
  17. flamedabone
    Joined: Aug 3, 2001
    Posts: 4,945

    flamedabone
    Member

  18. flamedabone
    Joined: Aug 3, 2001
    Posts: 4,945

    flamedabone
    Member

    One more thing... most of the time a funky differential will make noise when turning a corner, your video looks like you are going straight. Try axle bearings first.

    -Abone.
     
  19. harpo1313
    Joined: Jan 4, 2008
    Posts: 2,252

    harpo1313
    Member
    from wareham,ma

    Link didnt work Abone,good advice though.
     
  20. harpo1313
    Joined: Jan 4, 2008
    Posts: 2,252

    harpo1313
    Member
    from wareham,ma

    While on the subject ,do those big back meats put a big strain on bearings like i imagine they do ?
     
  21. Short Straw
    Joined: Dec 8, 2014
    Posts: 30

    Short Straw

    Jason, your thread got me going on learning about my champ rears. Thanks! I'm by no means an instant expert but I believe the drilled holes in your outer axle tubes are just air vents. The diff gets hot when it's going down the road and the air wants to expand. There are vent holes on the champ (inner)side covers about halfway up. They vent the hot air into the axle tubes but they are sealed so they were drilled to let the hot air out of the whole axle assembly. I don't see any other way hot air can vent to the atmosphere, so that's my theory .....but it's just that,a theory :)
    Oh, for bearing noise, generally, if you turn right and the noise increases it's the left bearing and vicy versy.
     
  22. Jason147
    Joined: Nov 5, 2014
    Posts: 138

    Jason147

    I will do the axle bearings for sure. Problem is, finding them. Looked at auto part stores and can't find them. I will look at bearing place then have them pressed on.
     
  23. Jason147
    Joined: Nov 5, 2014
    Posts: 138

    Jason147

    Yes I'm sure it's coming from the rear. I thought maybe exhaust leak but realized it's not and its coming from the wheel area.
     
  24. SimonSez
    Joined: Jul 1, 2001
    Posts: 1,632

    SimonSez
    Member

  25. Jason147
    Joined: Nov 5, 2014
    Posts: 138

    Jason147

    Sweet. No auto place here can get them. I just ordered 2 from that site. I appreciate the link!!
     
  26. Make sure you get the collar too.
     
    Jason147 likes this.
  27. I don't want to sound stupid here but you are aware that the quick change with the flat gears is going to make noise. Mine makes enough noise if your are riding behind me you can hear it. I don't care what you do with straight cut gears there will be noise.
     
  28. By the way really cool car. Magoo at one time set the bar high. Fix it and enjoy.
     

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