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Customs Can you guys talk a novice through a simple engine swap?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Lebowski, Feb 2, 2016.

  1. Yes , the oil will bring up the numbers,
    Exactly How from your 140 number did they come or how far above 85-105 did the go?
    That's the $6,000.00 question.
     
  2. One other thing that should be noted is if you do a compression test with the throttle closed, you'll get lower numbers.
     
  3. Yep, proper test procedures and methods are a must- with anything you do. Even baking cookies not just deciphering 6g rebuild
     
  4. Hotrod1959
    Joined: Nov 3, 2007
    Posts: 678

    Hotrod1959
    Member

    If it were me I would do the swap. With the tools you have you can do this. Take notes, bag and label nuts and hardware, take pictures.
     
  5. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,162

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    Multigrade oil was introduced in 1951. 10W30 was the default choice for oil changes at every garage and dealership in the sixties (I was there). You don't need 30wt and you especially don't need non detergent 30wt. That was called 'bulk oil' and we kept it around in glass jars and sold it for 45c a quart for oil burning klunkers that were one step away from the junkyard.

    30wt might temporarily quiet a bad engine a little and bring up oil pressure in a worn out engine. But is best left to those (prewar) engines that need it.
     
  6. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,162

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    One more test no one has mentioned is to take off the oil cap with engine running and see if air comes out. A good engine will have little or nothing come out, if it has a PCV valve should have a very slight suction. An engine with bad rings will blast out a mist of oil and smoke. From your video I think you have a very worn engine with bad rings.

    Be sure to keep the old engine if it is the original that came with the car, someone may want to restore it someday. Just having the engine is desirable even if it is not in the car.

    Incidentally $6000 sounds like an awful lot of money to rebuild a simple six cylinder Ford but I can see where someone would put such a price on a complete rebuild of an unknown, 55 year old engine.

    You may be able to rebuild it yourself for $1000 - $2000. Parts should not be expensive or hard to get. If you are real lucky you may be able to skip truing the cylinders and replacing the pistons and just put in new rings. How many miles on the car?
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
  7. wsdad
    Joined: Dec 31, 2005
    Posts: 1,252

    wsdad
    Member

    I like to put numbered pieces of blue painter's tape on all the wires and vacuum hoses with a matching number on where ever they go.
     
  8. Fortunateson
    Joined: Apr 30, 2012
    Posts: 3,123

    Fortunateson
    Member

    I like to drill a small hole between hinge pad and hood (1/8") so when I mount the hood a couple of small drill bits or even nails will re-position the hood correctly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
    upspirate, Hdonlybob and Hnstray like this.
  9. You keep saying that, but it certainly wasn't true around here, maybe in Canada. I know for a fact that Ford gave recommendations for oil weight in the 50s and they didn't recommend under 20W unless operating the car in below freezing temps or lower. And they didn't list multigrade as one of the choices. And the training I received before going to work for Standard Stations emphasized checking what viscosity was recommended and not trying to 'upsell' to multigrade unless it was recommended; they'd eaten a few motors learning that lesson.

    I bought a '56 Ford from the 'little old man' original owner in '68, with a freshly rebuilt motor; rings, bearings, pistons, the works and he had the receipts to prove it. I got it cheap due to oil leaks and a tendency to 'rattle' on first starting. The culprit? He was talked into your 'default' 10W30 oil. Changed it over to 30W, it quit doing both and ran flawlessly and quietly for another 100K miles until my now-X let her brother work on the stereo and burned most of the wiring harness up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
  10. drtrcrV-8
    Joined: Jan 6, 2013
    Posts: 1,260

    drtrcrV-8
    Member

    As was mentioned before : why not rebuild( or at least 'check') the replacement engine before you do the 'swap'? If you do the 'swap' & the 'new' engine isn't any better than the one you removed, you'll REALLY be pissed-off at yourself, or am I missing something? & as noted; save the original engine(possibly rebuild?) in a protected place in your garage so you'll have parts! (&,as long as you save it, you'll never need them!! LOL!!) At least put in a new clutch disc & through-out bearing when you do the swap : it's also cheap insurance, & if you don't, they'll usually go out in the 1st 6 weeks(it seems to be one of those "car-things". LOL)
     
  11. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,117

    F-ONE
    Member
    from Alabama

    It's no biggie, it's just a lot of labor, a lot of heavy work.
    I would do a compression check on the replacement engine. For the swap you'll need to use the bell housing and mounts. That stuff can be swapped while both engines are on the floor. Replacing the clutch disk is a good idea as has been mentioned.
    If the engine in the car is original I would have it rebuilt while I run the replacement. If you want I can do some checking around here. There's a shop my brother uses for his muscle car stuff and I'm going to have them do some work to my 289....they are a reputable business.. I can check with them about your 223.
     
    Lebowski likes this.
  12. U-235
    Joined: Dec 18, 2010
    Posts: 452

    U-235
    Member

    looks like you've gotten a lot of good advise here....but I missed the part where the Edsel had a 6 cylinder motor....I didn't know.
     
  13. I drill a 3/16" hole through all my hinges, into the skin of the hood, trunk or door. Makes a tough job into an easy one getting things lined up. I use a drill blank to line the 2 holes back up.
     
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  14. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 6,231

    Gman0046
    Member

    I'm with drtrcrV-8. Rebuild the replacement 223 and start with a fresh engine. The engine swap is not that difficult. A day or two at the max. Are there no "car guys" in Crestwood to help?

    Gary
     
    Hdonlybob likes this.
  15. jazz1
    Joined: Apr 30, 2011
    Posts: 1,479

    jazz1
    Member

    Don't be overwhelmed by engine swap. Its just nuts and bolts and you got plenty of tools. You be surprised how fast you get engine out if you follow a list such as Rusty Otoole has suggested. I had the same basic tool set you are working from 35 years ago on my first engine swap and have only added metrics and some air tools since.
     
  16. dan c
    Joined: Jan 30, 2012
    Posts: 2,093

    dan c
    Member

    before i actually did an engine removal/replacement, i was intimidated, too. on an older, simpler car like that edsel, it's not that hard. let us know how many bolts are left over when you get it done...
     
  17. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,830

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    How do you talk somebody through an engine swap in one internet forum post?
    Drain coolant
    Disconnect all wires and hoses.
    Remove all engine accessories, including fan, generator/alternator, radiator and any component in engine compartment that may get in your way. Remove carburetor and distributor to prevent damaging them.
    Disconnect exhaust, maybe remove exhaust manifold and intake manifold.
    Remove hood for more clearance.
    Remove upper radiator support if you can for more clearance.
    Attach engine hoist with bolts and chains.
    Unbolt motor mounts
    Unbolt bell housing.
    Lift, wiggle, jiggle, lift, rock, roll until engine comes loose.
    Reverse to reinstall.
     
  18. Lebowski
    Joined: Aug 21, 2011
    Posts: 1,570

    Lebowski
    BANNED

    That sounds good. Let me know when you want to come and if there is anything I should do in advance besides borrow the engine hoist from my neighbor....

    PICT0025.JPG
     
  19. 49ratfink
    Joined: Feb 8, 2004
    Posts: 17,703

    49ratfink
    Member
    from California

    I hope that $6,000 rebuild price included taking the motor in and out. even then it is way too high. it has been a while since I had any machine work done but I can't see where it would be over $2000.00, probably less.

    I've done a couple of engine R&R's for people and only charged 500 bucks. took me a weekend, but I am slow.... I don't know what a real business may charge
     
  20. don't be discouraged if it takes you a while to swop it out. if that job came into my shop i would plan for two days. plan for, moving the new engine into the shop, anything that needs to be swopped from one engine to the other, cleaning the engine bay while the engine is out, realigning the hood, tuning and adjusting, road test and cleaning the shop and the tools, disposing of fluids, doing something with the old motor etc.... takes time.
     
  21. $6000 is a pie in the sky number. I had my 355 short block done for $1750 last month, add-ons were balancing, cutting the crank, .030 over-bore, balancing the flywheel & clutch plate. The shop assembled it and degreed the cam. I supplied the pistons, rods, some ARP bolts and of course the cam and timing chain set.

    So your short block should be maybe $1200-1300, the head another $300, gaskets $100 and maybe another $100 of misc crap. Have them put the head on and adjust the valves, add $200. Parts that need to be replaced will run the costs up accordingly.
     
  22. sawbuck
    Joined: Oct 14, 2006
    Posts: 1,868

    sawbuck
    Member
    from 06492 ct

    100k huh ?wow!! Ford and GM could not get 100k out of em new !
     
  23. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,117

    F-ONE
    Member
    from Alabama

    Hold on a minute. Do not be in a rush to condemn that engine yet.
    Let's see it's restored car from a dealer. Automatically it's easy to assume this one too has a severe problem, especially since the Pontiac. It may not be the case.
    [​IMG]
    A very nice car. Lots of work has been done.
    Now look at this engine.[​IMG]
    Now a 223 is something I'm familiar with. Even a good one with plenty of life left looks like and can look like a blob of oil under the hood. Look how clean it is. To me that engine compartment does not look like it has or had a high mileage 223.
    I watched the video. Here is a possibility that I think you need to explore.

    If that engine was rebuilt with chrome rings years ago and not driven much, all that may be wrong with it is that the rings needs to seat. If that car has set up for some time some rings may have stuck. Either way driving it like you would break one in may solve either issue. If the rings are not broken in or set or stuck that could mimic the symptoms of a tired engine. The car seems to run really good.

    My advice...drive it and see if the rings will seat.
     
  24. BuiltFerComfort
    Joined: Jan 24, 2007
    Posts: 1,620

    BuiltFerComfort
    Member

    You would do the world a favor if you documented the whole swap process from your own point of view and experience level. It would help lots of people in your position in the future.

    Also the Before pics would help you get it back together. The tip about hood/ hinge alignment is a good one, and also bag/ tag the bolts as they come off. I've spent hours trying to get something tight, only to realize that two near-identical bolts have slightly different lengths. Better labeling would have saved me.

    I saw a guy with an A-Z punch set mark all his bolts before removal - maybe overkill - it worked for him.
     
  25. Nice car Lebowski!
    You can do it. Like the experts said. Photos, labels (blue painters tape is good), take notes, shop book, maybe a friend or two, and etc.
    The best part is how GOOD you'l feel about your accomplishment when your'e done! Especially that first drive down the road!
     
  26. Lebowski
    Joined: Aug 21, 2011
    Posts: 1,570

    Lebowski
    BANNED

    It was consigned to them by an 88 year old retired career Army veteran from a small town in Missouri. He had all the work done over the last several years in his area. I spoke with him twice for at least half an hour each time and got a lot of info on it from him. (I'm an Army vet too so we had a couple of nice chats about the car and also the military.) It came with over $20k in receipts for the paint job, original SMS interior, $5k for rechroming, etc. He got it looking good but hadn't changed the oil for at least 5 years. In the engine photo you can see that the air filter looks pretty old too. That has been replaced as has the oil and filter, plugs, etc. The car has 108k miles on it. He said he only drove it about 100 miles a year. He put it on his trailer and took it to the annual conventions of both big Edsel clubs every summer. I've put about 500 miles on it since I bought it in November. It was built here in Louisville on September 15, 1959 (second day of production) and was #70 off the line. When I buy an old car I try to learn as much about it as possible. This is my 6th Edsel. I've had two '58s and three '59s so this is my first '60....

    PICT0047.JPG
     
  27. David Gersic
    Joined: Feb 15, 2015
    Posts: 2,166

    David Gersic
    Member
    from DeKalb, IL

    I use fishing tackle boxes, the clearish plastic ones with lots of dividers to make various size compartments. Start at the top left, take something off, put it in the compartment, and add a scrap of paper to note what it is. Go across the rows as things come off. Clean everything. Then assembly is the reverse of how it all came off.
     
  28. Take 30 extra mins to sort mark organize and label the parts. That will save you countless hours of frustration later. I like zip lock bags, plastic bread ties, sharpies. Spending 10 mins hunting in a box every time you need a bolt you can't find is a great way to piss away 60 blocks of 10 mins each. About 10 solid hrs.

    Also start a list for things you need to get so as you find broken stripped ugly defective stuff ( as you find it) mark it down and procure the items on your list later. Re Finding the stuff on assembly fucks your whole day up.

    Those are Real time savers and only experience can know the importance and value of doing it.
     
  29. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,162

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    100,000 miles was about the life of an engine in those days, if it was treated halfway decent. If the engine has not been rebuilt it is due.
     
  30. Lebowski
    Joined: Aug 21, 2011
    Posts: 1,570

    Lebowski
    BANNED

    UPDATE! After 5 trips from his home in Dayton to my home in the Louisville area (135 miles each way), Junkyard Jeff and I have installed the "new" engine which doesn't smoke and runs great. It's a long story as to why it took so long but after his final visit yesterday the car is running and driving like a champ. After he got it running smoothly on all 6 cylinders we took it for a drive and I showed him the two Ford plants - the Louisville Assembly Plant where both my '60 Edsel and his '55 Ford were built and also the Kentucky Truck Plant which makes Super Duty (F250 and bigger) trucks. Now he's got an assortment of old car items that I gave him (plus some newer stuff and some cash) and I've got a car that runs great and doesn't smoke. I just wanted to let you guys know that Jeff is a class act (and also a great mechanic) who came through big time for me....

    PICT0007.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
    upspirate, Thor1, Squablow and 2 others like this.

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