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Customs Can you guys talk a novice through a simple engine swap?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Lebowski, Feb 2, 2016.

  1. Lebowski
    Joined: Aug 21, 2011
    Posts: 1,564

    Lebowski
    BANNED

    In November I bought a restored 1960 Edsel from a classic car dealer in southern Illinois near St. Louis without seeing or driving it first. When I went to pick it up I discovered that the original straight 6 smokes pretty good. When I got it home I did a compression test and it went from 85 to 105 front to back when it's supposed to be 140. After contacting some various car places in the Louisville area I found one guy who said he would rebuild it for $6000 next October and it would take several months. I already have $16k invested in the car and want to get the engine problem resolved as quickly and cheaply as possible. I found another 223 with a 3 speed manual out of a '59 F100 on Ebay in NW Pennsylvania so I bought it a couple of months ago, hauled it home in my truck and put it in the garage. I haven't been able to find anyone to help me (it would actually be me helping them) swap engines so I'm thinking about trying to do it myself. I've heard guys say they could do it in an afternoon but if I could do it in a month I'd be thrilled. A neighbor has an engine hoist that he said I could borrow so what I want to know is should I attempt to tackle this job by myself? I've done minor repairs over the years like fan belts, oil changes, and shocks but never anything major like this. I would think that a straight 6 with no power steering and obviously only one exhaust manifold would be fairly simple as far as engine swaps go. I would leave the trans on the new engine to make the job easier since it should be the same as the 3 speed manual that's in the car now and I wouldn't replace the clutch either. So what do you guys think I should do? Attached below is a 3 minute video of me driving it in which you can see what I'm talking about. Thanks in advance for any suggestions and positive comments....




    PICT0035.JPG
     
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  2. Lebowski
    Joined: Aug 21, 2011
    Posts: 1,564

    Lebowski
    BANNED

    It would only let me post one pic so here's one of the engine....

    PICT0046.JPG
     
  3. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,264

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You'd best wait for the Edsel guys to chime in, but you can totally do this!
     
  4. Looks like a bad case of valve stem seals. You let off the gas and the high manifold vacuum pulls the oil past the seals. Attack that first even if you get someone to do it for you.

    But it seems to run nicely, what do the plugs look like?
     
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  5. indyjps
    Joined: Feb 21, 2007
    Posts: 5,377

    indyjps
    Member

    I'm not familiar with edsels, are both engines 223's? I would consider replacing the clutch while it's out, even if you need to get assistance or pay.
    If the engines are the same family should be an unbolt, label everything carefully, bolt back in. Use the accessories, exhaust manifold etc from the edsel.

    If they are different engine families it gets more complicated.
     
  6. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 17,388

    Squablow
    Member

    Bob above makes a good point, that may very we'll be a valve guide/seal issue. Consider just taking the head off, sending it in to have it redone and putting it back on.

    That's a much easier job for a beginner and in a worst case scenario, you'd have a redone head to put on your new motor.

    If that works, keep the other engine oiled up and stored properly, good insurance in case you ever need it.
     
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  7. Slopok
    Joined: Jan 30, 2012
    Posts: 2,919

    Slopok
    Member

    For the few dollars it costs why not try a can of RESTORE? They claim it increases compression. I would try that first and if I was to swap engines I'd rather have a V8.
     
  8. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Do you have a decent selection of hand tools? Like wrenches, socket sets in at least 3/8" drive, screw drivers, jack stands, floor jack...oh, and a garage to work in if you want to do this before Summer? Any prior mechanical experience?

    What you want to do here is not really an especially complicated operation. No sarcasm intended, but you need to remove everything that is attached to the engine that is also attached to the car chassis and/or body. Remove the engine with a lifting device, lower the new engine in place and reattach all the things you disconnected. The "lifting device" can be a rented 'cherry picker', aka 'shop crane' or a chain hoist suspended from a adequate overhead beam, etc.

    Buying a factory shop manual, original or reprint, (FAXON auto literature, Amazon, eBay, etc.) will be a very worthwhile investment.

    Another option, since you have wisely dismissed the "$6,000 overhaul sometime in the future" is to hire the job out to a trustworthy independent repair shop, if you feel the job is too time consuming or daunting. But, if you WANT to do this, you CAN.

    Covering every detail in this response is not realistic, but it should give you an idea of the operation.
    I, and many others here, would be willing to act as 'coach' if you decide to tackle this project.
    Nice looking car, by the way.

    Ray
     
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  9. flatford39
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 2,799

    flatford39
    Member

    Nice looking car. Are you sure it's the rings causing the smoke and not a head gasket???

    To answer your question it is pretty rudimentary to swap out the engine and if you have a garage and the tools you should be able to do it yourself. I've done it a number of times alone. It's really not that big a deal. Try to find a manual that walks you through like Motors, Chilton etc. you should own a Motors repair book regardless.

    What do you know about the engine you purchased??? Did you hear it run??? How do you know it's better than the one you have??
    You really need to determine why it is smoking before you just yank out the motor.
     
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  10. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 17,388

    Squablow
    Member

    The 394 in my old Oldsmobile would smoke like that, had the heads redone and it wasn't perfect but it was very driveable afterward. Sending in a 6 cylinder head to have it redone shouldn't be all that expensive, and you could have hardened seats done for modern fuels, that's worth it either way.
     
  11. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    You need a repair manual. If you can't find an Edsel one, a full size Ford or even the generic Motor Repair Manual is better than nothing.

    Start by removing the hood and carefully setting it on the roof. Put a couple of quilts or blankets on the roof first to protect from scratches. This is the safest place to put it.

    Remove driveshaft, speedo cable, shift linkage and anything else attached to the engine/trans under the car. Remove mount bolts and possibly crossmember if it comes out. It is easier to remove trans under the car and leave bellhousing and clutch attached.

    Up top drain and remove rad and fan, disconnect heater hoses, wiring, gas line, and everything else attached to the engine. Disconnect exhaust pipe from manifold, this goes easier if you heat the nuts red first. Remove mount bolts. Attach hoist so there can be no mistake about it and lift out engine/trans. You will need to tip it back quite a ways.

    Once the engine is clear it is easier to roll the car back and leave the hoist alone. When the car is out of the road you can lower the engine onto a cart or dolly.

    This is general procedure for any engine. I have never taken an engine out of a 60 Edsel, the above is to give you a general idea what you are up against.

    It is a big job and in several places you will need a helper. If you can disconnect wires, hoses, remove rad and do all the small jobs first, and then if you can get an experienced mechanic to come over taking the engine out won't take long.

    Assuming you never took out an engine before, and that you go slow and careful so as not to damage anything you should be able to have all the small stuff done in a couple of days. Then get some help to remove hood, drop transmission, and pull engine that part might take half a day.

    You may spend a few days cleaning and painting the engine compartment and cleaning and painting the new engine then a day dropping it in and a couple days hooking everything up.

    2 experienced Ford mechanics with power tools could probably do the whole job in half a day.

    You will have to judge for yourself if this is within your capabilities. I don't see why not especially if you can get some more experienced help.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
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  12. wvenfield
    Joined: Nov 23, 2006
    Posts: 5,580

    wvenfield
    Member

    Others have you covered.......I'd have a knowledgeable guy that is local have a look at and go at the seals if it was me. There has to be someone in your area.

    That said. cool car.
     
  13. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Rusty O'Toole provided a very good overview......nicely detailed.

    Others urging a less dramatic alternative may be correct too. Ford engines from that era had a lot of valve stem seal failures that allowed oil to be pulled into the combustion chamber and a smoking exhaust was the result. However, the low compression numbers suggest the need for a valve job and/or piston rings. If valves, a 'valve job' would correct them and the seals at the same time. It would be worthwhile to determine what is really wrong with the engine. If it can be repaired easily and economically, that would be the course to follow. Keep the other engine for a spare. The question about it's condition was a good one too.

    Ray
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
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  14. David Gersic
    Joined: Feb 15, 2015
    Posts: 2,730

    David Gersic
    Member
    from DeKalb, IL

    If you squirt some oil in to the cylinders, does the compression improve?
     
  15. Yeah, send the whole head out. Most shops have a standard service charge and whack you for additional parts if needed. It runs very nicely as it is, hate to see you pull the whole thing apart.
     
  16. It will probably come up somewhat for sure. The one odd cylinder points to a valve issue. I'm sure the rings aren't 100%.
     
  17. You sold that poncho due too engine problems Iirc
    Did you hear this other engine run?
    There could just as easily be issues there as well.

    Run the compression test again. Record your #s
    Then
    Add a few drops of oil into the cylinders and do the compression test again. Record your #s
    If you get a significant rise in compression #s from the oil there's a very high probability the rings are the cause. There should be a significant amount of blow by thru the crankcase to back that up.

    If the numbers do not go up significantly the rings are likely fine and the low compression problem lies elsewhere. The next logical place would be the valves.

    If you've never done a swap, it can be overwhelming.
    The First one I did took forever! After a few they go much quicker almost like popcorn providing the swap is same for same. When Things get different, time adds up and pages run off the calendar. A " Motors Manual" would lay the entire process out for you, with additional info to back you up. It's not rocket science, that's for sure, but the little stuff seems endless and can be problematic. There's likely to be stuff that breaks, gets lost, or is missing and none of it is at Walmart :)
     
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  18. junkyardjeff
    Joined: Jul 23, 2005
    Posts: 8,588

    junkyardjeff
    Member

    As soon as I get my custom 500 back togather I could head down to help you.
     
  19. i agree with all of the posts but would like to add. making the swop is just nuts and bolts type of work. drain everything first, and i would remove the tranny and install it after the motor is back in. the thing i think should be your biggest concern, along with personnel safety, is not denting the car or scratching the paint. this could add up cost wise.
     
  20. Lebowski
    Joined: Aug 21, 2011
    Posts: 1,564

    Lebowski
    BANNED

    Thanks for all the comments and advice. I have a factory shop manual for the '60 Edsel. I have a full set of Craftsman wrenches in 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2" drive. I have a 3 ton floor jack, 2 sets of ramps and some jack stands. When I did the compression test I did squirt oil into the cylinders and tested them again and the compression improved. The '50 Pontiac with the straight 8 that I had a couple of years ago dropped a piston so I sold it as is to a guy from Missouri who had a rusty '49 4 door with a good engine that he was going to put in it. Both engines are 223s. I tried using some "Restore" but it didn't make any difference. A guy who knows a lot about old cars came over from Dayton, Ohio a couple of months ago and adjusted the timing which he said was way off. Then we drove it around and he checked it out and determined that the engine was "tired" and "worn out" and said it needed to be rebuilt or replaced. The guy at the local NAPA store suggested valve stem seals but the guy from Dayton said it was the rings. Thanks again for the input....

    Click on the link below to see and hear the engine running that is going in the Edsel....

     
  21. I'll add a few more thoughts. Yep, it's probably valves/guides but what type of oil are you running in it? These motors weren't designed for modern multi-grade oils and using it in them (particularly if they're getting tired) can lead to excessive oil consumption. Now, I'm not saying that switching oil will 'fix' it, but it may significantly reduce it. If you're not driving it in really cold weather (below freezing), I'd use straight-grade 30W oil in it. The advice to do a very thorough compression test is also very good, it may only need a valve job. Unless you know the actual condition of your other motor, you may be just trading problems. By the way, this probably isn't the original motor; the perimeter valve cover bolts dates it to '62-64, the earlier head used two 'center' bolts (ala Y-blocks) to hold the cover on.

    And a valve job isn't really any more difficult than swapping motors, particularly on a six cylinder, in most cases it's easier. Unbolt the intake/exhaust manifolds and push them to one side (you don't even need to disconnect the exhaust), remove anything else attached to the head, remove the valve cover and rockers/pushrods, then pull the head. Reverse after having the head rebuilt.

    One last thing; the truck motor, while being more-or-less the same if it's a 223 and not a 262, may have some differences. The clutch/bellhousing/trans are probably different (enough so that they may not fit), and it may have a different oil pan. If you do have a 262 truck motor, it won't fit as it's too tall and the hood won't close IIRC.
     
  22. Lebowski
    Joined: Aug 21, 2011
    Posts: 1,564

    Lebowski
    BANNED

    Jeff is the guy who came down from Dayton. Jeff, I was thinking about waiting until March or April when the weather warms up a little since my garage isn't heated. When do you think you'll get your Ford back on the road? Thanks again for trying to help me....
     
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  23. Hdonlybob
    Joined: Feb 1, 2005
    Posts: 4,115

    Hdonlybob
    Member

    If you decide to do it yourself, be sure to take lots of pictures...I mean lots....it will make it a whole lot easier to put the wiring, as well as other components back where they belong..
    I have done a fair amount of this, and still take pictures..
    Good luck. :)
     
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  24. Rusty O'tool pretty much covered the swap process but I'd add three more points:
    1) Take *LOTS* of pictures with a digital camera during disassembly.
    2) As you sequentially remove parts, set them down in a row, in the same order you removed them.
    3) Keep track of the fasteners- either thread them back in the holes, or put them in ziplock baggies, labeled with a sharpie.
     
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  25. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 13,174

    Budget36
    Member

    Thing is, smokes on deceleration, but when he floored it, no smoke (that I could tell).

    I'd have the head done if it was mine.
     
  26. It's about as basic a swap as can be had, but it's still alot of work considering the replacement engine is apparently a total unknown. I'm with the guys that say fix what you've got. It sounds solid. Great looking car, btw. My favorite year Edsel. Back in the day, ring and valve jobs were common as tire changes it seems.
     
  27. junkyardjeff
    Joined: Jul 23, 2005
    Posts: 8,588

    junkyardjeff
    Member

    I looked at the motor and its tired,I was wondering why someone would go through all the trouble to restore it but not even go through the motor. I should have my car back togather this weekend.
     
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  28. David Gersic
    Joined: Feb 15, 2015
    Posts: 2,730

    David Gersic
    Member
    from DeKalb, IL

    Ok, given that the compression improved with oil, the rings are at best suspect, and probably bad. Not knowing the health of the replacement engine, you might want to compression test that too before swapping it in. Or, maybe rebuild the replacement while driving on the old tired engine, then swap it in after the rebuild, if you don't want to be off the road for any length of time.
     
  29. belair
    Joined: Jul 10, 2006
    Posts: 9,013

    belair
    Member

    Don't forget to scribe some witness marks on the hood before you remove it. That way it will fit when you put it back on. Tons of good advice for you from the other guys. And rebuilding the one that is out of the car is a very good idea.
     
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  30. Jalopy Joker
    Joined: Sep 3, 2006
    Posts: 31,179

    Jalopy Joker
    Member

    #1 - great looking car # 2 - don't assume anything # 3 be as sure as any engine guy can be as to problems with you current engine and with replacement engine - do not want to do any of the work that you are going to do twice - ever talk to Guys at Weavertool Automotive Repair & Restoration on the South Side? 502-785-9405
     

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