Register now to get rid of these ads!

Can I weld bearings??????

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by bryceaugustine, Aug 20, 2013.

  1. ok so long story short i am trying to rebuild my flathead 226. its a continental engine and the crank was ground .060 on the journals. so i need .060 bearings for the journals/connecting rods. i can locate a set for the odd cylinders that work great. the ones i have for the evens not so much. if i torque them down they lock the entire assembly up tighter then a corset. i cant spin it at all. the evens and odds have the mounting tangs on different sides. i have an extra set of the odd bearing so i "sacrificed one set and ground down the tangs. i put them in one of the evens and torqued it down. i can rotate everything. all bearing come from the same place, (at least in theory) both have the same name on the packaging. appear to be the same thickness and what not. i have plastiguaged and everything is in speck; the evens just dont work.

    So this is my question. can i take my extra bearings, grind the current mounting tangs off. place a small tack weld where the mounting tangs should be. then with a file smooth it out and into shape and use them. willl this work? the composition/chemical makeup of the bearing and weld metal? will the weld heat warp the bearing makeing it out of speck and bad for my engine?


    if you want all of the background info about the rebuild and all the tests i did you can see my thread below.

    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=692444
     
  2. I've never tried what you propose, so I'm guessing here! I would think you would melt/distort the bearing material and/or the backing shell. My guess you have a miss-matched set of bearings or someone didn't get all the journals the same size. I would investigate further, find the problem and correct it. Welding on the bearings would be cobbling in my book.

    Edit, try it on one of the sacrificed ones, nothing to lose?
     
  3. Barn Find
    Joined: Feb 2, 2013
    Posts: 2,320

    Barn Find
    Member
    from Missouri

    I wouldn't do that until I solved the mystery of why it tightens up.
     
  4. txturbo
    Joined: Oct 23, 2009
    Posts: 1,771

    txturbo
    Member

    I doubt you could successfully weld on them. But if everything mics out correctly you could probably press a tang into the bearing with a shop press.


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     

  5. wicarnut
    Joined: Oct 29, 2009
    Posts: 4,022

    wicarnut
    Member

    With all due respect, I think you need a little help from your local engine or machine shop to measure everything for you. You can not weld on on a bearing insert in my opinion, I will follow this post to see if anyone has w/ success. You could put another notch in rod and cap to match inserts, but, that will throw the balance off, just a suggestion. A few $$ now will save you a lot grief down the road. John
     
  6. using a press for new tangs didnt even occur to me. thats and idea; i might look into that. my machine shop guy is looking for bearing for me now. i am ok with a few $$ now. i just want to finish the build ( and finish it right) so i can drive the truck again. the evens and odds do look slightly different but measure out the same. the packing has the same name but also looks different. it appears as if the even sides bearings (the ones that lock it up) where mfg'd at an earlier time. i am going to look into a better micrometer then what i have and take some measurments again. from my meausrements the journals was all the same. even if i only take 1 set of the evens and torque them down to 15 ft lbs while the rest are just finger tight; it locks up the assembly.
     
  7. Have you checked the corner radius on the regrind vs the bearing shells?
     
  8. Dan Timberlake
    Joined: Apr 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,269

    Dan Timberlake
    Member

    I'd be looking to see if the inserts are binding on the journal radiuses, or if there is some taper on the journal creating a larger diameter near the radius, but under the insert. Plastigage can show taper problems.

    The tangs are primarily to locate the bearings fore and aft correctly in the housing. For instance, in engines with 2 rods on a journal, the inserts are usually offset away from the radiuses/fillets at the edges of the crank journal. If the crank grinder created a radius a little too big, then even correctly made inserts will bind. "Racing" inserts often have a larger chamfer on the radius side to clear cranks with desireable overized radiuses.


    I'd install the bearings and mike the bores to see if the ID is correct and taper free.

    Your test grinding the tanks off suggests maybe the tangs are the wrong size or shape, or possible in the wrong axial location.
    If size and shape is ALL that is wrong with them I'd file the tangs narrower or shorter to fit the notches in the rods, and keep the insert correctly positioned axially.
    ut also postion the insert correctly axially.
    If I felt I had to change the notches I'd use a milling machine for accuracy and control.
     
  9. Gerrys
    Joined: May 1, 2009
    Posts: 327

    Gerrys
    Member

    Engine shop should be able to hone to the proper clearance/ radius if not too tight.
     
  10. black 62
    Joined: Jul 12, 2012
    Posts: 1,895

    black 62
    Member
    from arkansas

    you are getting a lot of bad advice here, weigh it carefully ---seek professional help...
     
  11. Tangs are for convenience only.
    Bearing crush holds the shells from turning.

    Lots of race motors get built without tangs, no problem.
     
  12. welding seems like bad choice so what about some epoxy and file it to shape?
     
  13. Jeff J
    Joined: Mar 15, 2007
    Posts: 950

    Jeff J
    Member

    If you weld on a bearing you will be taking out the hardness of the flange in that area . Not only possible to warp it out of round. What you are telling us on here , I would take it to a professional engine builder for a second diagnostic look.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
  14. YOJIMI
    Joined: Jun 14, 2004
    Posts: 1

    YOJIMI
    Member

    I've filed new tang grooves in rods before , when adapting bearings to obsolite stuff


    JIMI
     
  15. I don't profess to be a engine builder but I believe if I were you I would consult a known engine builder in your area,,this isn't something I would rely on from unseen keyboard mechanics.

    Before someone reading my reply gets their panties in a bunch,,,I'm not saying some here may not make a valid point but seeking out a professional makes good sense and could end up saving you time and money! HRP
     
  16. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 27,341

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Are you putting the rod caps back on correctly? the notches for the tangs in the bearings always mate up with each other on the rod and the cap. I've seen guys do that more than once and lock up an engine that they were assembling.

    Since it seems to only happen on the even cylinders is it possible that someone turned the journals at different specs? The odd number journals may be .060 but the even journals might be .050 or ? There used to be guys who had "in the car crankshaft grinders" who would go to your shop and turn one or two journals on a crank with the crank in the block and the block in the vehicle.

    Since you seem to be having more than the normal amount of trouble I'd highly suggest having someone who knows what they are doing mike the crank to see exactly what it's dimensions are.

    .060 under on the crank journals probably means that at one time or another that crank went though hell or survived several complete rebuilds with the crank being turned progressively more each time.

    If worse comes to worse an your crank isn't any good I have a 226 out here that has one cylinder rusted solid but the crank and rods should still be good and if you need that crank the price is the same as I got it for meaning that you have to figure out how to get it to your place and the cost of shipping. I got it as part of a two engine donation to one of my projects by another Hamber. I'd have to tear it down first to make sure it was even usable but it may give you an option.
     
  17. treb11
    Joined: Jan 21, 2006
    Posts: 3,540

    treb11
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    is the crank journal STRAIGHT? install one at a time and spin until the assembly "tightens up" then inspect that location.
     
  18. well mr48chev i really appreciate the offer, thats mighty nice of ya. i will keep that in the back of my mind in case i cant figure out/fix what is going on here. i will definitely get someone better then me to mic the crank and everything, to see what is going on.
     
  19. i have done this. working on differnt caps at differnt times. trying differtn torqueing order, etc. if locks up on any of the evens with only 15 ft lbs. i was torqueing in 3 stps. 15, 30, 45. after each set i would rotate. that works fine unless i do an even.
     
  20. Welding bearings :eek: ?????????

    Now this is a Rube Goldberg if I ever heard of one.

    I went to NAPA parts and looked it up. They do list two part numbers for rod bearings!!!!!!!!!

    That's a new one on me. I wonder why they did that?

    As was said by another poster, I'd be looking for rod/bearing interference in the crank journal radius.

    -.060 on the shaft is a ton. I never would've turned it that far, but those engines were never the best for lubrication anyway. Seems like almost everyone I heard run had loose rods or mains. Rods rattle on the way up, mains rattle on the way down.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013

  21. Nine years and this is where you finally jump in?
     
  22. raengines
    Joined: Nov 6, 2010
    Posts: 227

    raengines
    Member
    from pa.


    very true, and that being said, you can move the bearing shell away from the radius if that is causing the bind. or you can chamfer the edge of the bearing for clearance, also frequently done on race engines.
     
  23. Wildbill29tudor
    Joined: Apr 16, 2013
    Posts: 460

    Wildbill29tudor
    Member

    Me personally, I believe I would take mr48chevy up on his offer for that crank and have it turned to the minimal amount necessary to use it. Preferably no more than .030, just my two cents.


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  24. pitman
    Joined: May 14, 2006
    Posts: 4,957

    pitman

    Mr. A,
    The radius of the grind would possibly bind if it interfered with the even # fit-ups, as mentioned. Could you tell in using the plastigauge, if the radius was involved, in the bind?
     
  25. BWAHAHAHAHAH I fucking love it! damn:D
     
  26. my thoughts exactly.

    when i plastiguaged; all of the readings show .001 which is what my take apart/put back together manual said it should be. there did not appear to be any tapper. i was solid all the way. i think i am answering your question. the plastiguage was consistently smashed the same.
     
  27. pitman
    Joined: May 14, 2006
    Posts: 4,957

    pitman

    Bent rod? Nah, since the four all do it. Or something we haven't thought of, that makes for a bind in an even assy when tightened?
     
  28. indyjps
    Joined: Feb 21, 2007
    Posts: 3,907

    indyjps
    Member

    Dykem, buy a can, spray your crank journals, reassemble it finger tight and turn it over. You will see witness marks where your interference is. I'm guessing journal radius as already stated.
     
  29. hotrodarchaeologist
    Joined: Dec 4, 2007
    Posts: 495

    hotrodarchaeologist
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Maine

    Get another crank, have it machined properly, buy correct, good quality bearings...Love the 226's!
     
  30. JohnEvans
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 4,883

    JohnEvans
    Member
    from Phoenix AZ

    If you armchair mechanics look at the orignal thread at pictures of the rods you will the rod shank is highly offset from the big end . Why Continental did this I don't know but it was done on all of their "F" series engines 4 and 6s. I posted the correct FM part number on that thread. Willys ,Kiser-Frazer and others built that design under liscence from Cont.
    I suspect that the locating tabs on the problem bearings are improperly located causing the bearing shell to be offset enough the it is binding on the journal radius. The OP has removed the tabs on one set that when installed allowed the engine to rotate after the rod was torqued. Measuring from the edge of the bearing to the tab with a set of mics or calipers and compairing that demension to the bearings that work will prove or disprove that idea.
    Further inspection of the shells that bind should show markings on the very edge of the bearing surface if indeed the shells are binding in the radius. If the tabs are only slightly off posistion wise narrowing them with a file etc could slove the problem.
    Over the years I have adapted bearings from more modern engines to fit obsolete engines where parts are un-obtainum.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2020 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.