the welding cart thread got me to thinking (uh, oh, here it comes). can the gas bottle on a mig be used while horizontal? if it can and you're using the mid-size bottle you could make a cart with the bottle laying down underneath and the welder on top. seems it would keep it from being quite as top heavy as mine is now. i've never seen this done. is there a reason why not? like the gas won't come out if it's not upright? any thoughts? should i just make a new cart with a wider wheelbase? live with what i've got?
Gas is liquid under pressure, if the Bottle is Horizontal there is the possibility of getting Dry Ice instead of CO2. A slight angle is all you need though. I have Welded with bottles in a "nearly" Horizontal Position with no trouble.
Atch, I have had that thought too, I was sitting here talking to a buddy at work this morning that just got back from Iraq (reserves) and looking through his pictures there was a plane bomb cart that got my attention, I could see a cart setup with the tank underneith painted like a bomb (Maybe make up some fin's for it) and the welder on top. but my neighbors already think I'm crazy enough.. MONGO
I think it might be a safety issue. Setting upright, less chance of something knocking off the valve and turning it into a rocket. Just my $.02
If you don't protect your valve from being hit when you move the cart, you will have a bomb. I saw a tank go through the bulkhead (steel wall) on a ship when I was in the navy - very deadly missle.
My father told me a story about when he was doing a powerplant job in the '70s and they were driving pipe piles (40 or so feet long) next to the ocean. One of the piledrivers called him over and said, "Hey Steve, you gotta see this." They had driven one of the piles in at an angle and this guy and his buddy took a gas cylinder, stuck the valve end in the open end of the pipe and dropped it down. He said it flew off just like a mortar shell. OSHA says that pressurized gas cylinders used IN THE WORKPLACE need to be chained upright, or fastened to a cart, in the upright position. However, NOBODY tells people that would use it for recreational purposes the dangers of these tanks. When I bought mine, the guy just pointed and said, "it's over there." That was it. No warning, no tips on how to get it home in my car. Now, I don't have seatbelts in the '55, so if I had to slam on the brakes, it could very easily have fallen off the seat and had the valve knocked around. I can't believe that every propane tank you ever see has a collar around the top of it, to protect the valve, but I didn't see a single gas bottle at the welding supply house that had that collar. And they don't even give you the cap that is supposed to cover the top of the tank when it is not in use. I think whoever controls the regulations regarding these cylinders being used for recreation, needs to put pressure on the welding shops to make sure people know the dangers. I would imagine the DOT would have a problem with people riding around with these things flopping around in the back seat.
Good point Deyomatic. If you accidentally knock over a full size oxygen bottle (from your cutting torch set) and snap the valve clean off, you will leave a hole that has up to 3000 pound of pressure, pushing that bottle in the opposite direction. Believe me, that bottle will go through your rod, your house and then take out your neighbours fence with no problems Seen it happen in a big fabrication factory once. The bottle hit a big I beam in the wall and then went straight up through the roof, landed in the car park next door
Something from our safety talks at work NEVER lay acetylene on it's side, it is an unstable liquid that is in a honeycomb structure in the bottle and can cause an explosion, esp. when transporting and near empty. I about crapped my pants 'cause my work truck had a bottle laying in the bed to get filled Like mama said "the good Lord looks after children and fools"
atch, one of the guys in our car club (a welder) set his mig welder up for portable use. (hauling in the back of a pickup) He built a frame big enough to hold the bottle in an "almost" horizontal" position UNDER the welder. The bottle runs corner to corner of the frame (lower corner on one side, upper corner on the opposite on a diagonal) with a BIG HONKING guard over the valve end of the bottle. Beside the welder is a "tool" box. (gloves, goggles, etc.) The frame has rounded corners with wheels mounted at each bottom corner (the wheels stick out slightly to the sides and the bottom) so it's easier to load or roll around a shop. Tough "lift" or "move" handles (also rounded corners) on all four sides, with hooks to wind the power cord on one side and the torch on the other. The handles stick out far enough to keep the hooks from "snagging" on things. The handles also helps keep things away from the bottle plus gives him places to tie down the welder while in transport. The frame he fabricated from aluminum heavy wall square tube. The box out of polished diamond plate! Of course, it helps that he works for an aluminum specialty fabrication shop!!
sounds like a shitty welding supply that don't give you the caps for the cylinders. and they don't got em on acyteline, cause the pressure ain't so high, a few hundred compared to a few thousand psi of other gasses. as far as horizontal, and transporting them, you don't want them in a passenger compartment, but that is more due to possible gas leaks, than risk of mechanical contact. and "my welding guy" told me NO PROBLEM to lay an acetyline tank horizontally for transport, just give it plenty of time for the solvent inside(cant remember what it is) to settle back down to the bottom. i hauled my oxy/acetyline bottles in the back of my s-10 blazer, and the just made sure to have me sign a waiver that i know its not the smartest thing, just a liability thing, they werent even worried. keep a window open. as far as argon or c02 for welding, could you pull off a 10 or 15 deg angle? that would probably do it. and don't be afraid to ask the welding supply places for advice, they LOVE to give it!
ray, the solvent is acetone, and yes you can transport horizontal but you do need to give the liquid time to drain down or it can screw up the regulator. The reason that you have to sign a waiver to load into a closed vehicle is, IT IS DANGEROUS! If acetelyne leaks into a trunk any electrical spark or heat source can set it off, ie brake lights, or hot exaust. Use to work in a welding supply and we had pictures posted of a full sized Caddy that looked like a suicide bomber had used it in Iraq. Better safe than sorry.
I think the answer to the question is no. you want the Argon, Carbon Dioxide, Helium or whatever in a gassous state. the gas is at the top of the bottle therefor you want the valve at the top. safety is a real issue, if the bottle is properly secured with a chain mid way up and a ring at the foot and the valve is damaged it should be less of a danger then if it were laying down. although a jet propeled cart does sound exiting! the rule of thumb I've always used with Accetalene is that the bottle needs to be upright for at least as long as it was laying down before you use it.
Argon Co2 mix usually comes in a mixing tube ( Which is basically a gas bottle with a tube running down through the centre with holes in the side of the tube) so it draws gas evenly from throughout the bottle. seems tyo me if you tun the bottle on its side you would defeat the purpose of the mixing tube. mixing tubes
ok i got one to stur this up a bit .ok the guys that run nitrogen in there ar ride systems anll run well over 300 psi same an a argon/oxgen botels and they all run them in there cars laying on there sides. do they all need some kinda waring like do not get rearended
Yes. Mine is that way, our shop's was this way...never any problems...with Argon....years of experience.... Just don't snap off the neck...
[ QUOTE ] ok i got one to stur this up a bit .ok the guys that run nitrogen in there ar ride systems anll run well over 300 psi same an a argon/oxgen botels and they all run them in there cars laying on there sides. do they all need some kinda waring like do not get rearended [/ QUOTE ] how many psi is that again?
im not sure the exzact prusser but my buddy runs a oxegen tank from a welding setup it a 4 or 6 foot bottel that is filled at a welding shop to what the bottle can hold .so it the same psi as any 4 or 6 foot bottle is .my 4 foot argon bottle hodls 350 psi on the gauge so some where around there.
[ QUOTE ] Gas is liquid under pressure [/ QUOTE ] No it's not... This is a good subject, though.. I've been welding for most of my life, and can't honestly say that I know the answer to the horizantal bottle question. Never tried it. I ALWAYS strap my bottles to something (upright). However, the transport issue is a subject I violate regularly, and the guys at the welding supply sure as hell DON't tell you shit about it. I toss 'em in the back of the truck, chock 'em so they don't roll and away I go. Flamable or not. Probably a baaaaaad doggy. Here's a good one for you. One that just happened two days ago. I went to exchange my oxygen bottle, and two argons. The guy rolls 'em out and I throw 'em in the truck. It was like -15 out, so I just went inside and paid for it, and left. When I got to the job-site, I noticed the Oxy bottle is green (pure-medical oxygen). I know oxygen is an accelerant (helps things burn) so I wasn't sure if I should use it. So, I drove back to my shop and called the welding supply... No Clue They said, "Call the gas company."... No fuckin' clue, but the guy said the regulator probably wouldn't fit anyway. I called the welding supply back and told 'em to bring a bottle to Cable (today), which they did, as I wasn't going to take the chance. BTW, the regulator DID fit, I checked. Here's a little test to try... and my theory on the pure oxy. Take some steel wool, put it in a coffee can and try to light it with your torch. It'll get red, but it won't burn. Now, with the Acetylene shut off, piss some Oxygen into it, and try to light it, again. It'll go up like it's made of paper. My theory on the pure medical Oxy is: The Oxygen used to cut (blow the molten metal away) may accumulate and permeate the surrounding area causing things to become flamable, that usually wouldn't be. That's why you can't smoke when someone is on oxygen. Not that it's explosive, but shit'll burn. That's, also, why you should NEVER use the Oxygen from your torch to blow yourself off after work. You fill your cloths with oxygen, and you become a potential tiki torch. I did call a different welding supply in Superior, and they said I probably could have used it, but could have contaminated the bottle and made it unfit for medical use. I still think it could be a flash fire issue, though. BTW... Gas under pressure turns to liquid. Not the other way around. Once it's passed the valve and regulator it turns back to gas. Just a guess, but I'm gonna bet that different types of gas may work in the horizontal position, while others may not. Like I said, I've never tried it. I have seen manufactured carts where the bottle sits at a 45, though. JOE
osha/dept of labor safety stuff on cylinders http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10696 later jim