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Featured Technical Camber problem

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Mike Colemire, Mar 20, 2020.

  1. Mike Colemire
    Joined: May 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,147

    Mike Colemire
    Member

    I put a mopar wavy axle under the front of my plymouth 33 project, transverse spring behind axle with a model A crossmember and hair pins. I put new king pins and bushings in, everything is good and tight. My problem, tires are leaning in at the top, negative camber, my question is, is there anyway I might have installed the spindles on opposite sides? I wouldn't think it'd cause this, the steering arms bolt at the bottom of the spindle, the stops are in the front. It was apart for a long time, had them marked but some where along the line the marks are gone. Maybe it was that way to start with, I don't know but before I go to heating and bending thought I'd ask. Any other ideas on me screwing it up another way?!
     
  2. Jokester
    Joined: Jan 29, 2005
    Posts: 362

    Jokester
    Member

    pics??????????
     
  3. -Brent-
    Joined: Nov 20, 2006
    Posts: 5,094

    -Brent-
    Member

    Mike, how many degrees are we talkin'?
     
  4. Mike Colemire
    Joined: May 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,147

    Mike Colemire
    Member

    I don't really know how many degrees, I need to find a gauge that goes on the center of the hub like dirt trackers use. I guess I could put a straight edge, level maybe, and use an angle finder and get an idea. I'll try and get some pics.
     
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  5. Mike Colemire
    Joined: May 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,147

    Mike Colemire
    Member

    Just using an angle finder it looks like they are 5 degrees in at the top.
     

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  6. Penetrator
    Joined: Aug 25, 2011
    Posts: 312

    Penetrator
    Member
    from SK CAN

    Knee jerk reaction... wrong spindles.
     
    Ned Ludd and Mimilan like this.
  7. Mike Colemire
    Joined: May 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,147

    Mike Colemire
    Member

    They were the spindles that came with the axle and they had been on there for years.
     
  8. dana barlow
    Joined: May 30, 2006
    Posts: 3,692

    dana barlow
    Member
    from Miami Fla.

    If you didn't have that camber before, using the same parts** other then pins,you must of rolled over/upside down, the spindles ? Or the axle is bent in center? If not they wrong already some how


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  9. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 4,547

    sunbeam
    Member

    Are the spindles right side up?
     
  10. Mike Colemire
    Joined: May 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,147

    Mike Colemire
    Member

    I would think so, the spindles have 2 1/2 inch holes on the bottom for the steering arms to bolt to, upper holes are a lot smaller. The stops are on the front and serve to hold the king pin also, they are threaded. The only thing I could think of is I could have switched sides but I don't see that causing this. There is no damage or dents in the axle.
     
    gregsmy likes this.
  11. maneri
    Joined: Dec 8, 2009
    Posts: 192

    maneri
    Member
    from ohio

    brakes/stops should be in back side ---looks like mopar or after market axle -what's the bolt pattern??
     
  12. Mike Colemire
    Joined: May 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,147

    Mike Colemire
    Member

    Mopar axle, 4.5 BP.
     
  13. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 14,912

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    If spindles were upside down, it would be off many degrees. Are you sure the spindles had a good alignment before? Just because they were already on it doesn't mean they had a good camber. Maybe somebody just threw some Mopar spindles on the axle that had the same size kingpins. I know that some early Fomoco products had spindles that looked the same, but had different inclinations.
     
    ras, norms30a, Ned Ludd and 3 others like this.
  14. dwollam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2012
    Posts: 903

    dwollam
    Member

    Looks like you made the same "mistake" I did on my '33 Plymouth Coupe. I used a '38 Dodge wavy tube axle and retained the 11" drum brakes. It looks like you have hairpins on your axle with a Model A type front spring. That's what I did and showed on my thread on here and several people told me it was wrong and dangerous! They said go either parallel leaf or 4 bar on a tube. hairpins ok on an I beam. I still haven't changed it or made up my mind but it's not ready to be driven yet anyway. Now back to your problem. I have two 1933 wavy axles and both those and my '38 axle have the stops on the back side of the axle. That's stock that way. There is something wrong on yours for sure. The tires should be in at the top.

    Usually the calipers are to the rear of the axle.

    Dave
     
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  15. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 2,471

    Fordors
    Member

    The spindles were on the axle but did you ever see wheels and tires on the axle? I looked high and low for alignment specs for early Mopars, I have seen it before but can’t find it now. IIRC there are different KPI’s on various Mopar spindles. Could you have an axle from one car and spindles from another? Or do you know for sure those parts were always together?
    Try contacting Rusty Hope and see what he knows about the two spindles that look like yours, do they have different king pin inclination?
     
  16. Desmodromic
    Joined: Sep 25, 2010
    Posts: 504

    Desmodromic
    Member

    Despite the current issue of Hot Rod magazine's claim that it doesn't matter, I agree the calipers should be on the back. If front mounted, they can triple the load on the spindle's axle and bearings in a hard stop.
     
  17. mkubacak
    Joined: Jun 20, 2005
    Posts: 101

    mkubacak
    Member

    I am not saying I do not believe you, because I have no idea how it works. Please explain how the location of the calipers changes the force applied to the other parts. My feeble mind sees it as a being applied to one spot on a circle a fixed distance from the center.
     
  18. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,233

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Front or back mount on the calipers doesn't really matter outside of ascetics. It isn't going to change the stopping power it just looks like hell if you don't have fenders to cover it up.
    The question is: did you actually run that axle and those spindles or are they something you acquired years ago and stuck back until you could use them?

    Reversing side to side won't have any effect on camber, installed upside down would have a drastic effect.
    Wrong king pin inclination setting for the spindles would have a big difference but you would have to go year by year through the Mopar alignment specs and find out if there is a difference between say 32 and 36/7 I'm not well enough versed in early Mopar to know right off hand. I'm not sure when they swapped from mechanical to hydraulic brakes but that may have been the cause of a spindle swap.
     
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  19. -Brent-
    Joined: Nov 20, 2006
    Posts: 5,094

    -Brent-
    Member

  20. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 4,547

    sunbeam
    Member

    Are your sure look at post 21 With out a good picture it's hard to tell but the top of the spindle the king pin hole will be farther away from the brake backing plate. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/dodge-wavy-tube-axle-can-i-fit-ford-spindles.179346/
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  21. Hard to tell in the picture; was more stuff cut off the axle than the original spring saddles? Heat possibly could have pulled the tube. I'd pull the wheels and hubs off, level it across the top of the spindles, and get an accurate measure of the camber off the face of the spindle on both sides. Once armed with that info, should be able to tweak the axle back in compliance on a press. Looks like you batwing brackets are just tacked; maybe finish the welding, that could pull the tube around too.
     
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  22. Mike Colemire
    Joined: May 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,147

    Mike Colemire
    Member

    As far as the calipers, they will work front or rear, I never ran this axle, it came with the body, the stops were on the front of this axle, as I mentioned, they also screw in and hold the king pin instead of the wedge deal like ford has. The axle had been together for a long time, it had traces of that old grease like they used years ago, it was hard as a brick. The best I can tell, the spindles and maybe the axle to is out of a truck. I'm going by the pic on Rusty Hope's site on that. I've found several specs on camber, + 1/2 in, to 1/4 to 3/4's. I would think you would want them closer to 0 but I'm not sure on that. Thanks for all the help, I'm going to try and get time to fool with it tomorrow. I like the looks of the old wavy axle but I wish I'd went with ford.
     
  23. Mike Colemire
    Joined: May 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,147

    Mike Colemire
    Member

    Also, I was going to go with ford spindles but I read where you could have a camber problem.
     
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  24. jaracer
    Joined: Oct 4, 2008
    Posts: 172

    jaracer
    Member

    What happens to the camber if you roll the axle backward to give it more caster? Does the camber improve?
     
  25. Mike Colemire
    Joined: May 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,147

    Mike Colemire
    Member

    No, I went both ways, no change. In the pic it's at 6.5 degrees tilted back.
     
  26. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,012

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    I'd wasn't the calipers on the rear if for no other reason , to keep the brake hoses shorter and out of harms way closer to the frame ....AFA the camber ,
    I'm betting in the spindles being the problem ..
     
  27. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 2,471

    Fordors
    Member

    If it was mine I would pull the spindles and get the ends of the axle on top of the king pin bosses as close to the same angle- if one reads 8* you want the other one to read the same with your angle finder. If they are at least close that will at least give you an idea of the king pin boss angle.
    Next check a spindle, with the stub axle level what does a king pin read? That is your KPI- king pin inclination.
    As an example, an 8* axle and 4* KPI will give the result you have. I still haven’t found the specs but I believe there are Mopar spindles like you have that have different KPI’s.
     
  28. dwollam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2012
    Posts: 903

    dwollam
    Member

    The Dodge trucks had I beam axles just like in my '36 Dodge pickup. Cars had tube up through 1933, then '34 was independent, then back to tube in '35-'38. I'd have to say if the spindles were already on the axle and the stops are in the front, the axle is in backwards.

    Dave
     
    mrhp likes this.
  29. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,233

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Backwards/frontwards isn't going to affect camber. changing caster on that axle shouldn't change camber because it isn't the same as changing shims on an A arm or other independent suspension caster/camber adjustments where changing one changes the other.
    I can play with an axle I have clamped in one of those black and decker work stands tomorrow and stick one of ( or each of) my gauges on it but I'm positive that won't change.

    I'm still thinking that A a previous owner swapped spindles to have some that worked with better brakes or B the camber got changed by work someone did on the axle at one time or another. I could believe that more if it didn't match side to side though.
     
    studebaker46 likes this.
  30. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,233

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This is out of my 1946 Motor manual Showing the alignment specs for 35/46 Dodge IMG_9152 (1).JPG
     

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