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Technical Cam ruined 15 min.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by birdman1, Sep 18, 2019.

  1. egads
    Joined: Aug 23, 2011
    Posts: 498

    egads
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Lot's to read but pretty interesting.https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/
     
  2. birdman1
    Joined: Dec 6, 2012
    Posts: 658

    birdman1
    Member
    from USA

    thanks for all the information. i did actually flush the engine with another change of oil before tearing it down for the new cam and lifters. i put in the way over-rated valvoline vr1, and a new filter. It started right off, and I quickly set the idle at 2 grand. sounded great. watched for leaks , looked down at the point in the headers where t all the pipes meet(collector), and noticed it was cherry red at the collectors. both sides. then I noticed I had not connected the vacuum advance hose to the Holley carb, so it was sucking air into the manifold causing the red hot collectors. i pluged it, and the cherry red went away.
    AIt has about 50# oil pressure (hot) at 2,000 RPM, and 25 at idle(hot). I was hoping for more considering the 20w50 valvoline.
     

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  3. You do know that the metal worn from the cam lobes went someplace? In fact it was circulated thru the engine. much of it embedded in the bearings.
     
  4. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 1,735

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    Imbedded in the pistons , in the ring grooves , in the oil passages , the oil pump , + the bearings
     
  5. I like the VR1, recommended by my engine builder. The next change I went to Brad Penn 10w-40 and now using Kendall 20w-50 year round. I've helped guys change bad cams many years back, they just changed the oil a couple of times. A crap shoot for sure.
     
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  6. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 1,735

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

  7. Yes indeed. Different strokes for different folks!
     
  8. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 1,735

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    ??????????
     
  9. 1946caddy
    Joined: Dec 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,492

    1946caddy
    Member
    from washington

    So how did Detroit break in all the new car engines before selling them to customers ? I don't remember a lot of engine failures in new cars.
     
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  10. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 1,735

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    Different oils 30 years ago plus I think the parts were better ...back in the 60's in the Chevy dealership , we put new lifters on old cams without any special procedure without problems ...
     
  11. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 3,819

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Well there's really not enough information here to tell you. I mean, what was causing the engine to eat pushrods? That isn't a normal condition. BBC's have been raced hard for decades without eating pushrods, why was it this time. It's kinda hard to tell you why it stopped if you can't say why it started.

    What kind of additive? There are different kinds, some additives improve the lubricity of the oil (friction modifier), some provide some kind of anti-wear protection (not the same as friction modifier), some improve the viscosity index (less change in viscosity relative to temperature). Others claim to repair wear or damage. What did you use?
     
  12. All the engines are test run before they ever get installed in a car The fire them on LP spun over to start by a large pneumatic air gun via the harmonic balancer. and they flame hardened the cams and did not have high valve spring pressures. My father bought a new 64 chevy Pk 283 and the cam went flat and the exhaust valve failed to open filled the crankcase with gas and ruined the engine.
     
  13. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 5,927

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    Aftermarket cams with high lift, quick ramps, strong valve springs..harder on wear. I think my flathead has 60 lbs. on the seat and under 200 on the nose.
     
  14. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 2,744

    Boneyard51
    Member

    I was just there two days, so not 100% familiar with the brand of parts, but did see the damage. From what we could determine the push rods were failing due to a lack/poor lubrication. The huge harden push rod would “ peel back” that is a ribbon of metal would be sticking out from under the rocker. We checked the valves after every pass and would find a bad push rod/rocker at various locations. The rockers appeared to getting enough oil, although I didn’t like the appearance of the oil. I though it looked diluted with alcohol and condensation , possibly causing the poor lubercation. But that was just my observation.
    He changed nothing but adding “ power up” oil additive and has not lost a push rod since.
    Blues , I know you don’t believe in additives, and I know I shouldn’t........but I keep seeing problems solved with them in real life situations. This happened earlier this year and he has had many races with no failure. Now the owner of the car is a “Power up” dealer, he believes in it, that much.
    Just trying to wrap my head around this! Lol


    Edit: Blues I’m not trying to be a smart ass or a hard ass...... I am truly on the fence with this additive. Most additives I’m not in favor of. This one seems different to me. I know most learned people are against additives.





    Bones
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
  15. Not to pick on you in particular as your story is just a convenient example here but the problem with "real life experience" is nothing is done in a controlled way so one cannot say nothing else changed. Even your example to say nothing else changed is not entirely true as I assume the push rods were replaced each time it ate one so that could involved all sorts of change intentional or not.
     
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  16. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 3,819

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Well, that what's known as "anecdotal" evidence. Not really very helpful. It's usually not wise to make decision based on anecdotal evidence. Without diagnosing what was causing the pushrod failures, then you really don't know why the failures stopped. That is the truth.

    Re Power Up, I really don't know anything about it, haven't worked with it or known anyone who has. But looking at the tech data sheet, looks like your typical everyday snake oil to me. Can anyone tell me wtf the Gamma Wear test is?
     
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  17. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 3,819

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Here's probably more than you ever wanted to know about zinc. Good luck finding the specific answers you're looking for. If you find something somewhere, why don't you share it here.
     

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  18. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 2,744

    Boneyard51
    Member

    I get ya. We did replace each push rod that failed but not all 16 of them, so there are still some of the originals on the engine as we speak. But he didn’t change anything , such as different oil, or lash, or different brand of push rods, you know stuff like that. So we considered it basically that “ same” only the addition of the “ Power Up “ additive.





    Bones
     
  19. But as I am sure you know basically the same and THE same are two completely different things. Even just running the engine changes what is going on inside every time it is run.
     
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  20. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 2,744

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Blues, thats all the information I have, mainly just observations, as it wasn’t my car. He did keep the old push rods/rockers, in case he could get them analyzed, somewhere, in the future. Don’t know if he did, thought.





    Bones
     
  21. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 1,735

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    And that ......is the problem , nothing definitive , it's all advertising hype.....It's like hey we got this great stuff , we know it's great stuff , we just haven't used it ( guess they couldn't do a computer simulation so they decided it wasn't worth it ) After all , we are a rapidly declining market !
     
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  22. My guess is it would be pretty hard to give a definitive answer as there is probably not one answer that fits all scenarios because there are too many variables.
     
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  23. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 3,819

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Exactly. And what I posted was not advertising or marketing material, it was pretty extensive technical research and results analysis, it gets down into the nitty gritty of what ZDDP is and how it functions. It's not trying to sell anyone on anything. And it is very definitive, just not with the exact answers he was looking for, because as you posted, too many variables.
     
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  24. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 3,819

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    All the marketing hype bothers me too. In the article I posted, it speaks of there being more than 1 type of zddp, and this is true. And the different types break down further by the manufacturer. Just saying you have x ppm of zinc in your oil doesn't really mean a lot, what TYPE'S of zddp, and at what treat rates, and what brand? And what are the other surface acting additives in the oil that are going to affect the effectiveness of the zddp?

    I can tell you that historically, in the old days when cars of the HAMB era were originally built, zinc levels in then current oils were pretty low, about where they are today, or less. That'd be 800 ppm. In heavy duty diesel oils the treat rate was up around 1500 ppm up till about 2010, since then the rate has been around 1200 ppm for many, but down to 800 ppm for some, you have to dig around to find out what it is for any particular oil.

    I think for the vast majority of engines out there that 1200 ppm is fine, but again, there are different types and different brands, so it's really hard to say from looking at a label or a tech sheet how effective the oil is.
     
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  25. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 2,744

    Boneyard51
    Member

    C76787AD-9DFD-41AB-8482-D4866D131FB4.jpeg 6ED8925D-9E49-405D-B21C-7330591C4CC2.jpeg 397F4B1C-D817-426D-927E-307C31FCDF6A.jpeg I understand trying to control variables! I’ve always said “ do one thing at a time” so that you can tell what fixed it. I also understand that in a” laboratory “ setting variables can be controlled better, although not perfectly, than in real life.
    So..... I seems to me it’s the degree of variables that is acceptable or not.
    Since most of us don’t have or even have access to a laboratory, we have to settle for the real world and do the best we can and make choices based on our observations.

    An example of our methods is on our circle track car.... we only change one thing in the handling department after each race, if we determine we need improvement. We observed the need for change, made one change, observed to see if it made an improvement, hurt the performance or no change. We also used this method to get the max horsepower out of our engine with many pulls, but this was in a more controlled environment.....but same method. As you can see we added 30 horsepower by making one change at a time.

    I am truly interested in what works......and why? Just me!







    Bones
     
  26. This had less to do with a small vacuum leak slightly leaning out the fuel mixture and a lot more to do with the ignition timing being retarded. Reconnecting the vacuum advance probably added the 10 to 15 degrees of timing that the engine needed under normal conditions. Late ignition timing results in combustion starting later and the air/fuel mix is still burning as it passes the exhaust valve and enters the headers. When you plugged the hose back on the vacuum advance you probably also noticed an increase in engine speed and a "crisper" sounding exhaust. ;)
     
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  27. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 1,735

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    You sure you're not a politician , talk about many words with no meaning ...LOL
     
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  28. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 1,735

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    Sooooo , we are back to relying on s be anecdotal evidence....
     
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