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Technical Cam break in! Why all the problems?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Boneyard51, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 4,216

    ekimneirbo

    All the cam manufacturers recommend zinc and put it in their prelube and break in oil. Here is a really good video.

     
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  2. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 5,325

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    You have. He takes it a little farther, at least insofar as he claims that zinc/phosphorous isn't necessary whatsoever to protect against losing cam lobes, that high quality oils have all the protection needed. He goes on to say some oils that have zinc aren't necessarily very good oil to begin with, at least compared with certain oils without it. Again, these are his views, not necessarily mine. Interesting to read his viewpoint anyway.
     
    Boneyard51 likes this.
  3. Yep,,,,not a problem. Only happened once,,,,and it was my fault,,,pure and simple.
    At least I admitted it.

    I have seen some people that think they are lubing a cam good,,,,and it looks like some work that I can’t describe here in clean language.
    On any flat tappet cam,,,solid or hydraulic,,,,,the lifters must spin in the bore,,,no exceptions.
    When inserting the lifters,,,try to spin them ,,,if you can’t turn them easily with your fingers,,,something is too tight,,,investigate and see what is wrong.
    The lifters only need the moly on the face,,,,the body that spins in the bore needs a somewhat lighter lube.
    The cam lobes need very strong lube,,,the cam journals,,,,a lighter lube.
    There are a thousand ways to build an engine,,,I don’t claim to know all of them.

    When I break in a cam,,,,I go for rpm,,,and then after the time goes by,,,,it is always perfect after that. There are also a hundred different ways to break in a cam,,,mine works for me.

    Tommy
     
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  4. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    OK, I made it through 2:10 of that video and couldn't take it any more, that guy is talking out of his ass, and no that is NOT a really good video, it's full of misinformation, or FUD. FYI, not to blow my own horn, but just so you know where I'm coming from, I am a Certified Lubrication Specialist with the Society of Triboligists and Lubrication Engineers and Field Engineer with one of the major international lubricant companies, I know a little bit about the topic.

    Of course the cam manufacturers recommend you use a lubricant with zinc in it, zinc is still the predominant anti-wear additive used in ALL angine oils (except railroad engine oils), and that is one of the things that guy gets wrong. All auto engine oils have ZDDP additives, it's just the level has been reduced. The main thing here concerning what I posted above, is that the oil is formulated with the zinc in it, so that the zinc matches with the rest of the additive package in the oil and there is no adverse reaction. My comment was about AFTERMARKET zinc additives. When you use an aftermarket lube additive (ALA) you have no idea how well it is going to blend with and work with the fully formulated oil your adding it to. Fully formulated lubricants have a carefully balanced blend of chemicals, many of them like ZDDP are surface acting, they compete with each other for space on oil wetted surfaces. When you add an ALA you can disturb the balance, and instead of additives working synergistically together they can be antagonistic with each other, and performance of all them can suffer. Many tests have been done that show ALA's can and do actually increase wear.
     
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  5. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Well, I don't know about that. He's entitled to state his opinions. One thing we have discussed around here before is that zinc will only form a layer of protection (or a "tribofilm") so thick, no matter how much zinc is in the oil. And this is an important fact people must grasp to understand the issue, an oil with higher levels of zinc DOES NOT provide for a thicker tribofilm than an oil with lower levels of zinc. That is fact. I know that will conflict with what people think, but it is fact. Zinc only builds up into a film so thick and that's it, once the maximum thickness is developed it does not increase due to increased levels in the oil. Higher levels of zinc only provide a reserve of zinc to replace the film that gets worn off the parts. If the oil has insufficient amount of zinc, then it can be depleted, and the tribofilm can disappear, and THEN you have metal wearing against metal. This is a piece of the puzzle that must be accepted when trying to wrap your head around what is going on. Simply purchasing the oil with the highest zinc level, or pouring extra zinc additive into the oil, is NOT going to put an extra thick layer of protection on the cam, it won't.
     
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  6. buick bill
    Joined: Dec 18, 2008
    Posts: 856

    buick bill
    Member
    from yreka;ca

    my first car was a 64 impala. went flat in a couple months , but I tracked down the cause to be a rear seal on the crank . seems after going low on oil many times the cams in 327s flatten our pretty regular!! put in a used cam and lifters with grease and it was fine ! last cam I put in a 235/6 .lubed everything up good ,started it up ,and remembered I hadn't put the new oil and zinc additive in . filled the oil and ground ran it for a hour or so. I installed the mtr. .hooked up the tank that had set 40 yrs. ran grt. for another hour .turned it off . next morning valves stuck .bent most of the pushrods . broke the valves lose with a hammer . threw the tank away , and seems to be good . but I don't sleep good anymore!!! varnish never dies it just dries up
     
  7. Jalopy Joker
    Joined: Sep 3, 2006
    Posts: 31,177

    Jalopy Joker
    Member

    a lot has been discussed on all of this in depth before - the link from Truck64 providing info about newer diesel oil should not be used in non-diesel motors may help some that people are not buying the diesel oil that they relied in the past to meet certain requirements according to that site - to say the least, all of this data and differing opinions can be overwhelming to average guys like me - just make your best decision by learning from what others have experienced - but, not likely that my motor is identical to another even if parts lists look the same -
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  8. Baumi
    Joined: Jan 28, 2003
    Posts: 3,043

    Baumi
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Last winter I built a 327 for my girlfriend´s Suburban, nothing fancy, just a rebuild with a new 300 hp 327 cam, along with the correct springs the manufacturer recommended. Maybe this was my 30th or 40th engine I built, but the first to go flat after 20mins of break in at 2000-2500 rpm. Yes, the cam had been lubed, the lifters and lifterbores too. I used hi zinc oil and break in additive. Even removed the inner damper springs for breakin the cam in, as recommended.In the second pic you can see where I damaged the " hardened" surface on the worn lifter by simply pulling it with pliers. I cleaned everything and put the used 1967 GM 327 cam along with the old 1967 GM lifters that came in this engine back in and guess what??? Nothing failed after 5000 or so miles. I hit the GM cam with a 3/4" wrench and got a "ping-ping " sound, whereas the new aftermarket cam sounded more like " clunk". Same with the lifters.
    My best bet is, maybe the cam would have survived for a couple thousand miles if the lifter had held up better. But I doubt it would have held up as long as the old GM piece. No amount of ZDDP can fix bad quality, just my 2 cents.
    IMG_9544.JPG

    BWYQ6888.jpg KWBR6273.jpg TSJA9827.jpg NBVB3364.jpg
     
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  9. I have been building hot rod engines for many decades. Only ever lost one flat tappet hyd. cam. Failure analysis determined the lifter was the cause of the failure. My coupes blower motor has a radical hyd. roller cam. From what I have seen over the years, most problems that occur with this type of camshaft have to due with the roller lifters. ( ever see some of the valve train problems that occur on drag week?). I check my roller lifters at the end of every race-show season very carefully. Any thing seems the slightest off or wear I replace them. I run good oil and Lucas oil stabilizer. Has worked for me for years, and I work this engine pretty hard. Just my 2 cents. This thread is a very interesting read.
     
    Baumi likes this.
  10. This of course begs the question “what is the appropriate level of ZDDP in oil ?
     
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  11. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 5,325

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    Supposedly "Break-in" oil has no detergents or dispersants (or very little) one reason it is supposed to be changed out right away. A similar characteristic of dedicated "racing" oil.

    The reasoning goes, the detergents don't make a distinction between carbon or sludge, and the sacrificial zinc layer. I don't know how true this is, I'm not a trilobite-botanist or whatever it's called.
     
  12. Maybe,,,,it might be the equipment,,,,,the lifters and not the installation or break in.
    There are a lot of crappie parts being sold now.
    And you never know,,,they might be peddled by reputable companies as well.
    Perhaps unknowingly,,,but,,, still the same.
    That lifter should not mark that easily on the side,,I dont believe

    Tommy
     
  13. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 3,323

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Had a First Gen GMC Handi Van, want to say it was a '66...It had the 307 in it.....about 30,000 miles and tick, tick tick of a lifter with a hole in the bottom of it and then a wiped lobe. It was a bitch to pull that engine too....even bought replacement parts from Dan Ely Buick-GMC no avail. It was all stock...just blamed it on crap parts
     
  14. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 19,138

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Are you thinking 305, the 307 was introduced for the 69 model year.
     
  15. Ziggster
    Joined: Aug 27, 2018
    Posts: 1,697

    Ziggster
    Member

    So, I have a flathead short block assembly that I will start assembling into the long block. Not sure if cam/lifters have been "pre-lubed", and not sure of what type of oil to use for my break-in. Everything is still stock, but the cam is an Isky1007B grind. What should I do or check?
     
  16. X-cpe
    Joined: Mar 9, 2018
    Posts: 1,958

    X-cpe

    I believe the 307 was '68 and the 305 some time after that.
     
  17. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 6,213

    sunbeam
    Member

    I like early Dodge Hemis no new cam blanks only regrinds. Finding good blanks is hard Out of 6 only one did was usable without having a lobe built. There seams to be a big difference in cam blanks
     
  18. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 19,138

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    I was responding to winduptoys GMC comment the 305 was a GMC V6.
    I've never had a 307 but have always heard it was introduced in 68 for the 69 model year.
     
  19. Black_Sheep
    Joined: May 22, 2010
    Posts: 1,446

    Black_Sheep
    Member

    I've only had it happen 1 time out of 20+ builds, it was only one lobe but it was worn almost to the base circle. The lifter was obviously FUBAR too. I'm 99.9% sure it was a lifter problem since the retainer on that lifter was found in the pan. The filings trashed the oil pump and somehow found their way past the filter and embedded into the bearings. It was a mess...
    nolobe.jpg
     
  20. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 3,323

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Yes, '69, that was the year of the van, 307 V8 I am sure... It would haul ass though when it was fresh
     
  21. s55mercury66
    Joined: Jul 6, 2009
    Posts: 4,335

    s55mercury66
    Member
    from SW Wyoming

    307's were introduced for the '68 model year, my brother had one in his '68 Chevelle, and the local Chevy dealer has it's twin sitting in his showroom. I don't know if GMC put any of those 305 V6 engines in light duty vans, but having owned one of those engines, they would probably cover most of a van's GVWR, they are heavy.
     
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  22. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 4,216

    ekimneirbo

    Note: I transported this from the other thread about oil additives "Something interesting I was reading on engine oi"

    First let me say that I don't believe there is one exactly correct answer that satisfies everyone, and I believe that Blues4U has done an excellent job trying to help all of us. I appreciate the time and effort he has put into it.


    Blues4U
    The main thing here concerning what I posted above, is that the oil is formulated with the zinc in it, so that the zinc matches with the rest of the additive package in the oil and there is no adverse reaction. My comment was about AFTERMARKET zinc additives. When you use an aftermarket lube additive (ALA) you have no idea how well it is going to blend with and work with the fully formulated oil your adding it to.


    Ekimneirbo
    I think I understand what he is attempting to say here, but then it leaves other questions. Earlier in the 90s(?) oil was changed to reduce the amount of zinc it contained. This was done for reasons other than benefitting the engine. Apparently it was beneficial to catalytic converters and the environment.....not the engine. So if the zinc was reduced, adding some "could" prove beneficial if the oil composition is still the same.
    But the oil composition didn't stay the same, and we don't know exactly how much zinc can be added because all manufacturers have different formulations. So its really a guessing game and your (experienced) opinion is that no one should put any additive in any oil because it "might" add too much zinc to be compatible with detergents etc.
    [​IMG]


    Stock factory engines (pre-roller cam) usually had mild enough cam ramps and valve spring pressures that oil with the reduced levels of zinc provided satisfactory results. Moving on to hot rods, the cam ramps became more aggressive and valve spring pressure increased. Now the reduced zinc level becomes inadequate for many cams.
    A builder is then faced with a choice.
    1. Use oil that is not capable of providing sufficient wear resistance as manufactured
    2. Add zinc to that oil and chance adding too much
    3. Purchase oil that is designed for additional wear with a preengineered mixture of additional zinc.

    I think the confusion is that its okay to use the premixed version of the oil, but not to add your own zinc to your existing low zinc oil. The problem is that a hot rodder may be just as bad off if doesn't use additive as if he does use additive. Apparently there is a ratio/range that is acceptable. (probably varies with the manufacturer)
    Many people have used this additive with successful results. Before the formulation of diesel oil was changed, many many many people used it for break in oil by adding zinc to it. While it may not suit the technical definition of chemical correctness...........it has worked thousands of times. I consider Comp Cams to be the premier aftermarket cam manufacturer in the world. They certainly have done their share of design and testing of high performance cams with extreme spring pressures. They feel certain enough about its capabilities to market it for use with their camshafts........and their reputation is sterling.

    Blues4U
    Yes, I've read it and can clarify things. First off, Joe Gibbs may be great oil, I don't know, the specs look good, I suspect it probably is really good stuff; but their web page tech stuff is heavily influenced by marketing crap, it's really embarrassing and I wish they'd get real. But then, most every lube companies marketing sucks real bad (even the company I work for, I cringe sometimes when I see their adds).


    Ekimneirbo

    From what I can determine, Gibbs does not manufacture an additive and only sells preformulated oil. Its harder to determine something doesn't exist than that it does, but to the best I can tell, they don't make an add to additive.
    Are you saying that aftermarket oil with the additive mixed in is also unacceptable ?


    Joe Gibbs Racing : Exerpt
    Are you ready for some good news? The key to how much and what type of Zinc your engine needs depends on your engine’s valve train. If you have a stock valve train and no other performance modifications, then an API licensed oil is all you need. Every API licensed oil will protect stock engines under normal street driving cycles.

    When you start making performance modifications or begin racing, everything changes.

    Higher lift cams with longer durations and greater spring pressures need a faster response from the Zinc. Oil development in race engines shows that faster acting ZDTP does a better job protecting highly loaded valve trains. Basically, the Zinc package needs to be optimized for the application, and this is where the confusion happens.

    (Suggest reading the whole thing at https://tech.drivenracingoil.com/zinc-in-motor-oil/
    Its a good grass roots explanation.
    I respect Blues4U's knowledge and time spent educating us, but when manufacturers recommend a product and stake their reputation on the results.....and when industry professionals have used it for years with good results, I have to feel its an acceptable product.;)


    Maybe a roller cam is the best choice. Then no camshaft blues......
     
  23. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 6,440

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Blues4u, you mention that zinc is used in all oils but railroad engines, what do they use and why are they different?










    Bones
     
  24. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 19,138

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    A friend of mine had a 468 BBC hyd. roller engine, proffesionally built, Comp Cams, etc. all high quality parts first trip out of town was to the CHRR.
    Made it to Redding and started hearing a squeak, thought it was the throwout bearing, ended up the roller lifters were going away.
    Was able to make the trip and milked it for the weekend but had to get a ride back and go back a week later with a towbar and retrieve it.
     
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  25. Kan Kustom
    Joined: Jul 20, 2009
    Posts: 2,739

    Kan Kustom
    Member

  26. Elcohaulic
    Joined: Dec 27, 2017
    Posts: 2,212

    Elcohaulic

    A Pennzoil tech I used to drink with told me oil additives are a joke. In order for them to work they have to be boiled into the oil at 300 degrees.. Could be b.s., he was a joker...
     
  27. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 4,216

    ekimneirbo

    When they tore it down, what did they determine was the root cause of the problem ? What do you mean by "the roller lifters were going away" ? Is he still running a roller cam now that its fixed ?
     
  28. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 19,138

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    The axle bearings in the lifters went kaput.
     
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  29. That has proven to be a common failure with some roller lifters. The squeak like sound is a dead give away. One year on drag week, Jeff Luts heard that sound. They tore the engine apart and found one roller lifter- bearing failing. The lifter was no longer rolling on the cam lobe. They replaced the lifter and lucky for Jeff there was no visible cam lobe damage. The team and car continued on.
     
  30. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Railroad engine oils are zinc free because of the use of silver in the wrist pin and con rod bearings, and that silver bearings do not get along well with zinc anti-wear additives. There are non-zinc anti-wear additives, but they tend to be more expensive. Some common additives that have been increased in modern oils as zinc is reduced are boron and molybdenum.
     

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