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Technical Cadillac flathead horsepower tricks

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by 38FLATTIE, Feb 7, 2009.

  1. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,350

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

  2. keeper
    Joined: Jul 24, 2006
    Posts: 396

    keeper
    Member
    from So Cal

    Definitely looking forward to watching this progress.
     
  3. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,801

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    If there is anything that folks can think of that these oil pans need modifications wise it would be a good time to post your comments now so Dustin can consider them in his pattern before it too late...
     
  4. RADustin
    Joined: Aug 16, 2011
    Posts: 192

    RADustin
    Member
    from Louisiana

    yeah I agree. any ideas just post up so we can discuss.

    it will loose a little capacity, but I'll still run what stock held. The fluid line will just be a smidge bit higher.

    I will drill the pan for a newer style magnetic tip drain.

    the fins will be laid out as to what I think looks good. I been thinking about putting a raised boss in the bottom that has a recessed pocket to hold a caddy emblem. My dad was a cadillac tech before he opened his own shop, so we have boxes of emblems and stuff. I'll have to draw it all out first though before I can make any decisions. But this is what I'm thinking.

    I'm worried about casting this thing. I'm going to definitely have to call Collin a few more times and send some more emails to people in the know. I'm also still looking for someone local who has the facilities. If I can find someone I trust I'll just cop out and have them handle the pouring.

    this shows how I cut it to draft it more. Don't mind the welds, I let my little brother "learn" on it so he did well for his second time behind the shield.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,801

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    Justin, choose your fins carefully as some on early cast hot rod stuff were inclined to brake off as they were too tall and thin, probably not what you would want down so close to the road.
    Magnetic pickup is a great idea.
    I was wondering if anybody would have a comment about a boss hidden on the inside for a modified dip stick if required it could be drilled in later.
    The Cadillac emblem sounds awesome.
     
  6. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,350

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    I'd like to see a couple of ports installed, in case someone wanted to run a dry or wet sump.
     
  7. RADustin
    Joined: Aug 16, 2011
    Posts: 192

    RADustin
    Member
    from Louisiana

    I really don't know much about external wet sumps and dry sumps.

    Seems like a dry sump pan work be a complete different shape from a wetsump pan.

    I really would like to run a wetvac setup but it's so much $$
     
  8. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,801

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA


    Dustin, if you just leave a couple thickened areas on the inside of the pan so they can not be seen from the out side so that there is a decent thickness for tapping external stuff in later.

    I can not offer much with regards to the systems you guys are talking about.
    At the end of the day it is your casting so you have final say on what is included or left out.
     
  9. RADustin
    Joined: Aug 16, 2011
    Posts: 192

    RADustin
    Member
    from Louisiana

    I'm not against it, it is just foreign to me.

    The reading I've done on it doesn't amount to any kind of experience so that makes me nervous.

    What I'm thinking is....once I can get a basic pan cast, I can add wedges to the inside to give me an increase in thickness in a few areas and cast a few like that.
     
  10. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,350

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    Contact OJ here on the board. He loaned me a new one, for mockup, and offered it to me at about half price. For what you're building, it would be perfect!

    I would have used it, but decided on the dry sump.
     
  11. RADustin
    Joined: Aug 16, 2011
    Posts: 192

    RADustin
    Member
    from Louisiana

    I hate you. HA!

    if I can hide my cam position sensor inside the timing cover then I may seriously think about it. but if i need a dizzy tower then I most probably won't.


    I got further on the pattern, but I didn't finish. No real pictures of progress. I expected to finish this weekend but had some issues getting it how I want. Next weekend is looking good for getting it done and volumed.
     
  12. RADustin
    Joined: Aug 16, 2011
    Posts: 192

    RADustin
    Member
    from Louisiana

    Little further. I decided to keep it simple. I will plan to cast a few like this. Then maybe change it up and cast slightly different ones if there is enough interest.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. keeper
    Joined: Jul 24, 2006
    Posts: 396

    keeper
    Member
    from So Cal

  14. Pete1
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 1,662

    Pete1
    Member
    from Wa.

    A dry sump is good for about 10 hp.
     
  15. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,801

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    Nice work Dustin, can't wait to see the finished product.
    Also makes you appreciate how much work can go into making a pattern, which folks who have never done it just dont realise.
     
  16. RADustin
    Joined: Aug 16, 2011
    Posts: 192

    RADustin
    Member
    from Louisiana

    Thanks guys. This is all for y'all.

    I primed it up so I'll sand it back out and fill all the pin holes. Then I think I'll just single stage it black or whatever color. That should be fine, then it will be ready to cast.

    So I'm hoping to start getting my "foundry" together.

    I just hope I can recoup some of the money this is costing me. I will have close to $200 in bondo/paint/sand paper in just this pattern. Im doing a pretty decent job on it so hopefully it lasts a while.
     
  17. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,350

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    Nice job!

    What are they going to cost?
     
  18. mrkaos63
    Joined: Dec 13, 2008
    Posts: 14

    mrkaos63
    Member

    Any thought on this grind I am sending my LaSalle 322 camshaft to be done... it is a proven grind for flat heads with 8.1 compression.... with 265 degree intake duration, 275 degree exhaust duration, and .385" /.395" lift at .050", on 108 degree separation angle and 108 degree intake centerline.
     
  19. RADustin
    Joined: Aug 16, 2011
    Posts: 192

    RADustin
    Member
    from Louisiana

    its shiney and black!

    Im not sure about pricing. Allow me to make them successfully first.

    [​IMG]

    there is 4 runs in the bottom set up fins that will be to be sanded out. Whoops! got in a rush.
     
  20. RADustin
    Joined: Aug 16, 2011
    Posts: 192

    RADustin
    Member
    from Louisiana

    Im not sure about that cam but
    I just had Pete grind mine to the eliminator 425 profile and it looks nasty. I'm sure it will sound equally as good and should have the numbers to boot.

    Isn't 8:1 higher than stock?
     
  21. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,801

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    I think 7.25 : 1 was about best they ever got in stock engines.
     
  22. mrkaos63
    Joined: Dec 13, 2008
    Posts: 14

    mrkaos63
    Member

    Shaved and welded in 47 heads to increase compression.
    Same thing we do for our racing mowers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2012
  23. RADustin
    Joined: Aug 16, 2011
    Posts: 192

    RADustin
    Member
    from Louisiana

    I'm still chugging along on this oil pan project. I'm getting close to pouring, and may even pour next week.

    I'm trying to source material and having a bear of a time trying to find it at a reasonable cost. It isn't a huge problem, but the end cost will be higher.


    In an email I sent a while back to Kevin I was hoping to price the pans at $250. This goal is un-achievable. Without charging for time, I'd still loose money on each pan.

    I'm thinking a solid price would be $400. That would be cast, machined, and drilled ready to be installed. Keep in mind, at this cost my profit is still very light because of how intensive this is to do in my area where supplies alone cost 4-5 times "normal" not including the amount of labor.

    Let me know what you guys think. If this price scares some/all of you away I understand, but I can't see it being any cheaper.
     
  24. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,350

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    Contact Fiftyv8-I think he melted down aluminum wheels for his valley pans and timing covers, and they were a good quality aluminum, and affordable.
     
  25. Zerk
    Joined: May 26, 2005
    Posts: 1,419

    Zerk
    Member

    This is an excellent idea. Either get your aluminum from wheels ("wheelium") or old pistons ("pistonium").
     
  26. RADustin
    Joined: Aug 16, 2011
    Posts: 192

    RADustin
    Member
    from Louisiana

    I plan on using pistons for "practice pours"

    for the actual oil pans I want to know exactly what the material is. I also want to make sure the aluminum I pour is good for thin wall parts, so I've chosen A356.2Sr.
     
  27. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,801

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    Dustin, yes I use damage aluminum wheels and cut them up into pieces that will fit the cucible.

    Mind you cutting them up is no easy job, you quickly realise how tough some aluminum can be.

    The idea was that folks may want to polish my parts and this wheel material as wheels polishes well.

    I suggest if casting this material should be considered for at least a trial cast to determine its pour charateristics on your project.
    The scary part will be how well it goes with your thin walls.

    I've kept my parts a little thick in the wall but your item being so big it would use heaps of material and also may have cooling problems or develop freeze points as they are known.

    Making the pattern is just the half of it...

    Good luck with your first pour.
     
  28. Pete1
    Joined: Aug 23, 2004
    Posts: 1,662

    Pete1
    Member
    from Wa.

    To give you a ballpark idea, Dan Price was getting $450 for his 2 piece cast aluminum model B pans awhile back.
     
  29. RADustin
    Joined: Aug 16, 2011
    Posts: 192

    RADustin
    Member
    from Louisiana

    the $435-450 range seems like the ballpark for specialty pans, and I can pretty much figure why.

    the gating for oil pans is tricky, much more so than I originally thought. Collin has been real helpful in this aspect.


    as a btw, I've seen flathead ford pans as high as $2500!
     
  30. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,801

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    Dont forget the shipping cost.
    That can be a deal ender as well...
     

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