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Technical Cadillac Flathead Chronicles - Tell Us How You Are Doing.

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by fiftyv8, Feb 25, 2012.

  1. rshooman
    Joined: Feb 20, 2012
    Posts: 13

    rshooman
    Member

    How do I find Collin Sugart? - I want to put a blower on my 40 Cadillac - 72 series - I have both a 1940 motor and a 1946 - one will stay stock (probably the 40 to keep the car as close to stock as I can if I want to put it back) and the other will get a blower. I am following Buddy's thread on the 200MPH quest - great information. I am not planning on going as exotic as that, only 7-8lfs boost, but still want some zip.
    Thank you all for great information.
    Shooman
     
  2. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,350

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    PM sent.
     
  3. St. Louis Cummins
    Joined: Nov 29, 2012
    Posts: 124

    St. Louis Cummins
    Member

    Hey guys, i have two flat cads i woild like to get rid of. Let me know.
     
  4. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,789

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    Can I suggest that you post some details in the for sale section and maybe post the link in your next post here.

    Obviously the more info about the engines will help sell them.
    We have a good following for these engines as hot rod power plants nowadays.

    I hope you still have a flathead Cadillac engine for your own project???
     
    rat nasty likes this.
  5. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,789

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA


    Nice work Ben, it is a great project...
    Have you run it on the strip to get any times for the 1/4 or 1/8???
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
  6. mrkaos63
    Joined: Dec 13, 2008
    Posts: 14

    mrkaos63
    Member

    Finished a 250 mile round trip shakedown run to Billet Proof 2013 at Don Garlitz's yesterday. Kept a steady 3000 rpm pace on the interstate system kept a steady 180 degrees. My Rpm's are maxing at 5400(it is screaming). Still have the factory 3.93 rear ( building a ford 9 inch) and the 1:1 tranny. Just need a 1937 to 1940 cam core (they are steel). to send to Riley for the next phase.
    Thanx for the space to post this.
     

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  7. Man does this get the juices going
    [​IMG]
     
  8. captainjunk#2
    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
    Posts: 4,332

    captainjunk#2
    Member

    man that flatty caddy dragster is awesome , thanks for showing us some pics of it
     
  9. aertex
    Joined: May 4, 2010
    Posts: 12

    aertex
    Member

    MrKaos63, can you please explain more about cam options with Riley? Can a warmer cam be ground from a 37-40 322 stock cam? Where do we find Riley?

    Thanks
     
  10. mrkaos63
    Joined: Dec 13, 2008
    Posts: 14

    mrkaos63
    Member

    37-40 cams are steel. That is the advantage for welding. I have some grinds in mind that I am pulling from my racing mower experience. PM Riley on HAMB 4-port Riley
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2013
  11. 54cruzer
    Joined: Dec 6, 2006
    Posts: 249

    54cruzer
    Member
    from florida

    cad flathead question: a friend of mine has a '47 346 supposedly rebuilt, but it sat up for quite a while. It seems the valves are sticking on a few of the cylinders, (checked compression- low on them). He's run and driven it a bit, but still runs rough at times, it has a rebuilt carb and ignition, he swears it's the valves. Anything reasonable to try if it is the valves? (They
    aren't adjustable?) He wants to give up and swap a 472, so he may have a motor for sale.
     
  12. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,350

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    Best thing I've found is tranny fluid. Put a quart in the oil, and run the car. Pour some done the carb-it will smoke like hell! I've had too pour up to 2 quarts through the carb, but it works great!

    I wouldn't drive the car hard with the tranny fluid in the oil, but it will help. Then change the oil.
     
  13. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,789

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    I've been thinking about using a smaller starter motor on my Cadillac flathead engine and since my project is RHD there is not a great deal of room to install the stock starter, so I have decided to adapt a mini starter in place of the original.

    I have a Bendtsen tranny adapter for a T700R4 tranny and discovered from day one of my ownership that it did not match up to my early Cadillac engine block down at the lower tags.

    So during this process of adding a mini starter I have also made up some adapter plates to connect the lower block tags to the Bendtsen's adapter.

    I found a scrap piece of billet aluminum and welded it to the side of the adapter kit in a position that will allow me to locate my new starter into position.
    Once I am satisfied with the gear mesh and throw out spec's I will just scribe and drill two new holes to mount the mini starter. My aim was to position the new starter in tight but clear of the flex plate ring gear, so I can shim it out if required.

    There is still some extra work to do around the starter and on the otherside of the block to close up the openings that exist between that adapter and the block.
    I propose to make a couple of aluminum plates to fit the openings and attach them as part of the adapter (sheet steel would be easier but may rattle at idle if too thin).
    Eventually I will trim down the added piece of billet to more closely follow the shape of the new starter motor.
    This method still allows me to go back to an original starter at any time.


    Attached are a couple of pic's of my progress.

     

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  14. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,789

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    I got a little more progress on this mini starter install.
    I have now selected the correct position for the starter and ensured the gear mesh is going to work.
    Once I was satisfied with the final location, I scribed, drilled and tapped the top hole (used 7/16" bolt) into the aluminum adapter plate.
    For some reason the lower starter motor hole is a bit larger in diameter and would require a 5/8" bolt.
    I decided to use another 7/16" bolt on the lower hole.
    To fill the larger hole I placed a washer onto the 7/16" bolt followed by a nut.
    I did the nut right up tight against the underside of the bolt head, then I put in my lathe and machined the nut down to the required diameter.
    Fit just nice.
    I will add a picture of this bolt later.
     

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  15. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,789

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    Pic's of homemade purpose made bolt as promised in my post above...
     

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  16. 38FLATTIE
    Joined: Oct 26, 2008
    Posts: 4,350

    38FLATTIE
    Member
    from Colorado

    Nice work, Russ!
     
  17. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,789

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    Finally got my billet adapter biscuit made and installed.
    I am sure it must be half the weight of the original item.
     

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  18. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,789

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    As I progress with my engine assembly in readiness to install into the frame sometime in the not too distant future, the thought occurred to me that these engines don't run thermostats.

    Do you run one with your engine and if so how did you do it.
    I am thinking not to bother especially in our more mild winter climate, but have tried to think it thru all the same.

    In answer to your question of temp control, I had to analyse how the original cooling system was designed to work.
    The water pump moves water from rad into passenger side of block. from there it leaves the passenger side in two or three ways,(depending on whether or not you use a heater core in the cab).
    The passenger side exit to the radiator is smaller at the front, than the driver side, to force coolant to move over to the driver side through a passage below the center cam bearing.
    Coolant then exits the driver side in the otherwise normal fashion.

    The original Caddy had louvers in front of the radiator to control temp.
    I found it challenging to control temp any other way (still do).
    I'm currently enjoying relatively good temp control by using a heater which gets coolant from the rear of passenger side, and reducing the volume allowed to exit the front of the passenger side.
    I installed a plug with a 1/4 inch hole drilled in it, which is hidden inside the top rad hose.
    Then I have installed a thermostat housing (195 degree) in-line driver side radiator hose.

    Using a thermal sensing gun (infra red) to monitor temp al over the engine. I found it also needed coolant to exit from the back of the driver side which I accomplished by installing another heater line exit from the rear (driver side). Both heater lines join into a "Y" that returns to the water-pump.

    This works quite well for balanced temp control, and on my last cruise, ambient temp was 60deg F, both side of the engine ran a constant 180 -190 with the radiator covered 3/4 by a sheet of cardboard.
    I use a mechanical temp gauge on the rear of each side of the engine. Did I say it was a challenge? LOL

    Thanks for the detailed information on this topic.
    I am no expert on some of these side issues that seem to develop out of playing with less known engines.
    After reading your comments, I was wondering if both radiator outlets had their own individual thermostat (one for each side), rather than just one thermostat trying to balance two outlets.

    My radiator is setup with 2 outlet points and I will be running 2 separate top hoses which will both exit into the radiator individually.

    I am also curious to know how much of a problem rusty shale and chucks are a problem in the radiator water which has the potential to block radiator tubes.

    Your heater tube solution sounds a little more that a lot of guys could handle setting up.

    Funnily enough, I sent an email just the other day to a HAMB friend in CA asking if he was interested to design a very small themostat housing that would bolt over the head outlets on the engine with a view to running one each side which may utilise common thermostat plates/discs and say make use readily available SBC neck which could provide a choice of angles and swivel.
    I asked also to consider a screen to stop junk entering the radiator.
    No reply from him as of now.

    I am hoping not to require external radiator covering on my project.


    Russ,
    I don't believe there would be a problem with a thermostat on each side, just be careful to monitor temp on each side.
    I installed a reducer on the passenger side, simply to have greater control overall.

    A real thermostat housing on each head as in the Ford flatty may be the best solution.

    Any answer from your contact in California would be interesting.
    I went a little overboard when I saw 250 degree temp at the back of the block.


    I'm sure you'll make it right whatever happens.
    Don't know what to say about your scale plugging the radiator problem.
    Any kind of screen you could install would plug also.
    But at least you would be able to clean it easy enough.

    On another note, you may find like I did, that the firewall around your feet gets quite hot.
    I had to insulate that area.
    I didn't have a need for it with the Ford Flatty.

    Thanks again for your reply and useful information regarding Cadillac flathead engines.

    Yes, I plan to run two temp guages similar to what you have done...



     
  19. keeper
    Joined: Jul 24, 2006
    Posts: 396

    keeper
    Member
    from So Cal

    I would be happy to help out with the thermostat housing. Just send me some sketches of what you have in mind. I have my block sitting at home collecting dust right now so I should be able to fit up to that no problem (I wish it wasn't collecting dust but time has been tough to come by lately).

    I am afraid I don't come on here much but I'll subscribe to this thread so I get updates.

    Sorry I didn't get back to you Russ.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
  20. keeper
    Joined: Jul 24, 2006
    Posts: 396

    keeper
    Member
    from So Cal

    Hahaha... I just realized I AM THE CONTACT IN CALIFORNIA. Sorry Russ I am not sure how I lost your email but I did. (guess I lost my brain as well)

    Anyway here I am now and I'm on board. I made an adapter in the past to replace the original water pump. It was a nice set up because you could use the original style gaskets but gave you flexability to run what ever you want from the quick disconnect.

    a_full.jpg b_full.jpg

    I made this originally from talks with Buddy about running and electric pump. I could also make the plate just block that area.

    I'm sure this will not be a popular idea on here but I am planing on running two smaller radiators in the REAR. Yes I am aware of the potential problems and to me thats part of the fun. I think if any of us wanted something easy we would be rolling SBC's and call it a day.

    That being said the dual thermoste route will really lend itself well with what I want to do so I am definitely on board with working with you on this part. Plus its new and different and I like new and different.

    Russ sorry again for brain farting on the first email.
     
  21. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,789

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    Dear contact in California, here is what I envisage the criteria to be;

    • to work on both LH and RH sides,
    • filter the radiator water
    • look traditional
    • be compact enough for most hot rod builds
    • run easy to acquire bolt on stuff such as neck and thermo disc
    Thanks for your reply.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
  22. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,789

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    A poor mans version of basically what we are talking about but inline could be to get 2 SBC straight radiator hose necks and bolt them back to back and include a thermostat and run them as an inline unit.
    I see some of the necks sell for about $15 each.

    Or even a pair of the item in the 2nd pic as an alternative according to your needs or direction of hoses...
     

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    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  23. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,789

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    It would be great if this Cadillac flathead specific thermostat idea could include similar characterristics to the attached pic's offered to me by others to this point...

    By using
    • a traditional looking sand cast body,
    • a simple screen filter system, as I am told these old blocks continue to shed rust and shale even after being cleaned and rebuilt and especially for some folks who are just running with what they found.
    • with a simple and short connection to say 1 1/2" diameter top radiator hose.
     

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  24. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,789

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    I note something similar can be found on a motor bike cooling system, which gives me hope that we may be heading in the right direction...
     

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  25. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,789

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    If somebody out there has a 3D printer this would be a great opportunity to make a prototype...
     
  26. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,789

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    Purchasing a tranny adapter kit...

    Just a word of caution for those considering purchasing/using tranny adapter kits with their Cadillac flathead engines.

    It has been my experience that the kit I purchased did not fit correctly to my engine.

    In my case the lower two engine to bellhousing bolt holes missed by about 2 inches on each side.

    I have also come to the conclusion that the adapter I have was really only designed for tranny swaps in stock original Cadillac cars.
    This being the case space consideration was not really a priority, it seems it may have been more about matching tranny mounts!!!

    Further more, all that said, I have managed to make the adapter fit and suit my project as most of the machining part of the kit was correct.

    I say most, as in my case the kit employed a cylinderical steel biscuit which bolted to the end of the crankshaft as can be seen in earlier pic's posted on this thread.

    It seemed like a lot of weight to hang off the end of my crank so I decided to replicate it from billet aluminum which I am sure will help ease the load.
    The scary thing was I did replicate it exactly only to discover when assembling the whole kit as one that the original manufacturers piece I had copied from was about 3/8" too short in the first place and hence was not going to work in my view.

    I approached the manufacturer regarding this issue in the hope he would at least recognise the problem and not send more incorrect length pieces out in kits.

    His reply was, "you are fooling with old engines and you can not expect things to fit perfectly, my advise to you is to shim the 3/8" gap".

    So I decided shimming a 3/8" gap was not an option and hence went out again and had new biscuit made 3/8" longer to make fit correctly.

    Please learn from my mistakes and assembly any kit you decide to purchase as soon as it arrives in the mail so as to ensure true fit and compatability with your engine and tranny.

    To the guys with RHD projects also check steering and starter motor clearances before going too far.
     
  27. 346cad/36ford
    Joined: Mar 4, 2007
    Posts: 18

    346cad/36ford
    Member
    from Australia

    Hey there Russ, all.
    Hope all had a Safe and great Festive season and here’s to an even better New Year which I was reminded of today when lifting a couple of Flat Caddies about trying to sort out a rotten adapter plate for the T700 ( will let you know how I go with the hoped for, trimming of the cast adapter )
    Anyway, the perennial New Years resolution. Weight Loss. How to put the Caddy on a diet
    I ran a few bits over the 40 year old bathroom scales, so approximate
    Heads 12kg each24kg or 53lb the pair ( or near enough) Anyone know the weight of Kevin’s Cyclone, or Edmunds, alloy heads ?
    Timing cover.Russ’s Alloy job comes in at 3kg, say 6.5lb. <O:p
    Any idea what the stock monster with those massive cast lugs for the Generator weighs in at ? I've not pulled mine from the engine as yet<O:p</O:p
    Generator 8.5kg, 18.5lb<O:p</O:p
    Water Pump 3.5kg, 7.5lb<O:p</O:p
    Starter motor 12kg, 26.5lb with these latter 3, there has to be some saving with a geared starter, lightweight alternator, perhaps an electric pump.<O:p</O:p
    Exhaust manifolds, total for both L & R with crossover 14kg, 31lb<O:p</O:p
    Stock inlet 12kg, 26.5lb versus an Edmunds dual 2bbl at just 5kg or 11lb<O:p</O:p
    Also weighed the flywheels for interests sake. The Manual version came in at 22kg, 48.5lb, whilst the Auto version was a comparative lightweight at 7kg, 15.5lb.
    <O:pAny diet gains though, are offset by the "protein shake". The blower manifold/adaptor plate/the 4:71/snout & idler mounts/carb plenum, add 35kg/77lb</O:p
    Any advice as to weight of the Alloy heads / Stock Timing Cover appreciated.<O:p</O:p
     
  28. 346cad/36ford
    Joined: Mar 4, 2007
    Posts: 18

    346cad/36ford
    Member
    from Australia

    Flat Cads - Adapter plates & sumps..
    Some pics..Aside from the fact that the adapter is just too thick, like fiftyv8's, mine is also not a great fit but not as far off as his.. the starter side is Ok but if you check the pic attached ( just shot from a rubbish phone) you'll see that there is daylight on the LHS, from the rear, between block and adapter.. all the bolts line up though so a bit of scrap welded in should suffice
    The other shot is of a Flat Cad adaptor that has been trimmed, with a plate welded & trued, to the trimmed back, that accepts a Flat Ford ( pre 8BA) gearbox, bell housing and all.. this example came out of a '48 Ford 5 Ton'r that had a war surplus Caddy fitted.
    Having pulled the engine & T700, I'll swap the pans over.. that's a 6" rule taped to the side of the pan.. so at about 6 & 3/4", versus a standard car pan at about 5 & 1/8", it will allow me to drop the engine at least 1.5" lower in the chassis, free up a heck of a lot more foot room with the tranny lower and further forward when the adapter is trimmed down.. the flamed engine mounts are only tacked together so they can be easily reworked when the engine is dropped.. all Fun. A Great, Safe & Healthy New Year to all.
     

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  29. rontiffany
    Joined: Dec 13, 2013
    Posts: 21

    rontiffany
    Member

    Hi guys just another Flat Cad lover nerd here! So I can post here about my cool (IMHO) Caddy flathead without getting spanked by the administrator for talking about it in the wrong thread? Cool! LOL! Anyhow there is a lot of good info on this thread. I just want to build a hotrod with a engine you just don't see everyday and at every show. I don't have a car or truck yet for it but I want to get the engine qualified and running before I go any further. This was a running take out years ago and was I think a surplus tank motor with car accessory's. The engine wouldn't turn over a full 360 so I pulled the heads and found it to be like new, so I removed the hydra-matic and it still would not turn over a full turn. It ended up being 2 intake valves were stuck closed, a little heat and penetrating oil solved that.
    I'm really interested in the cooling system, Mine had the water pump removed, so several mice family's made it there home. Any how my mechanical experience is in Caterpillar marine and industrial engines and many of the latter engines used what they called inlet regulated thermostat cooling where the ran a bypass hose or tube to a t-stat housing at the inlet side of the water pump. I think this would work well with this engine especially if you were using a rear mounted radiator...GASP... and you could hide the t-sat housing down below somewhere. Amot is a brand that I remember using! Thanks for listening, if you need any help in cooling systems let me know, I might remember. LOL
     
    ghornbostel likes this.
  30. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,789

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    Welcome aboard, thought we had lost you.
    I posted on your earlier thread and when I went back later to see how it was coming along, it was GONNEEEE.

    Glad you are back and I hope to here more from you into the future.
    Being thast you are focusing on the engine for staters you will most likely catch up to us real quick and then ove take us with new knowledge.

    Russ.
     

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