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Technical C4 Transmission help needed

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Eric Satterfield, Apr 11, 2020.

  1. Starlinerdude
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 130

    Starlinerdude
    Member
    from Washington

    You can index it as necessary,its when its out to far that there is danger of disengagement.You do need to index while the bellhousing bolts are still loose though.
     
  2. Starlinerdude
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 130

    Starlinerdude
    Member
    from Washington

    If you were able to freely turn the converter without contact with the flexplate while all bellhousing bolts were tight and the bellhousing surface mated flush the back of the block not jacked up on an alignment dowel,then your flexplate is too far away from the transmission due to your adapter setup.
     
    ted kovacs likes this.
  3. Starlinerdude
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 130

    Starlinerdude
    Member
    from Washington

    Your converter has studs not nut and bolt right?
     
  4. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,801

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    I have to wonder if you checked the converter out to see if it was seated into the pump.

    There are 2 distinct moves back in to the pump when you rotate the converter and push it into the transmission.

    If you stop at the first one then you aren’t there yet.

    I have a C4 connected to my Y Block with a different kit so I’m not familiar with the speedway flathead kit.

    I just checked out their instructions and I see that they have a section on checking to see if the torque converter is seated in the pump properly.

    That brings up the question, did you follow the instructions?

    https://static.speedwaymotors.com/pdf/916-28901.pdf
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
    alanp561 and Flathead Dave like this.
  5. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 273

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Setback in bell housing when convertor is seated. I’m sure it was seated this far when I installed it .When I tightened it to the flywheel it’s pulled it out of the pump I feel sure.
     

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  6. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,801

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    You still didn’t answer the question.
     
  7. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,801

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    If the torque converter is seated into the pump then when you hold a straight edge across the bell housing (without any adapter bolted on)
    it should measure 1 1/8” to the converter mounting pads at the base of the studs.

    And you still didn’t answer the question.:D
     
    Flathead Dave likes this.
  8. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 273

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    It measures 1 -9/16. No I didn’t measure that to begin with. I figured for $2400. I should have received the right parts.
     
    raven likes this.
  9. Nope...I got a $400.00 Hayes 2800 stahl converter sitting on the bench that proves that’s not always true...thought it looked strange when it came out of the box and didn’t have studs like a normal Ford converter..went and got bolts to try to put it in..nope..Summit sold it to me no problem and the tech line read me the directions back..told em it wasn’t a GM...called Hughes and they got the right one..with studs like a stock converter
     
    Nicholas Coe likes this.
  10. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 273

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Measurement. I had to do this on my back in the garage as I have no access to a lift. I did check the flywheel to block measurements before hand. I was not able to test fit with the engine out if the car like shown in the directions.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Starlinerdude
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 130

    Starlinerdude
    Member
    from Washington

    So now the question is,the fact that the converter seats in nearly a half inch deeper than the minimum required does that mean the converter drive snout is too short or is the pump rotor broken allowing the snout to go in too far?
     
    VANDENPLAS likes this.
  12. Kevin Ardinger
    Joined: Aug 31, 2019
    Posts: 247

    Kevin Ardinger

    Wrong converter. Small bell converter in a big bell housing case.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    47ragtop likes this.
  13. Starlinerdude
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 130

    Starlinerdude
    Member
    from Washington

    Sounds like the tranny is going to have to come back out,unless a transmission guy can verify that the additional half inch seating isn't an issue.
     
  14. Starlinerdude
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 130

    Starlinerdude
    Member
    from Washington

    Sounds like you got your answer.
     
  15. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 273

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Transmission is out. I will call them on Monday. Thanks for the replies.
     
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  16. Starlinerdude
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 130

    Starlinerdude
    Member
    from Washington

    Sorry dude that's a bummer.
     
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  17. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,801

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    That sucks is a correct assumption and I hope that you haven’t done any damage to the pump in transmission.

    Hope it works out.
     
  18. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 273

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    The pump never picked up at anytime. There was no fluid even in the cooling lines when I removed it today.
     
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  19. Flathead Dave
    Joined: Mar 21, 2014
    Posts: 3,065

    Flathead Dave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from So. Cal.

    As long as didn't hear a "PING" when you bolted the trans up, the forward pump should be ok.
    I would pull the trans and double check the seating of the converter before contacting Speedway.

    I used the Speedway C4 kit to bolt it to my flathead. I had no problems at all but I also didn't buy the trans from Speedway.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
  20. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 273

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Although smaller in diameter. The convertor that was used in the Flat-O-Matic conversion that was in the car when the supplied as purchased transmission went out. Is the same height from the pilot area to the end of the hub as the speedway supplied unit. The Flat-O-Matic bell housing is much shallower than the large OE one being used now.
     
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  21. Kevin Ardinger
    Joined: Aug 31, 2019
    Posts: 247

    Kevin Ardinger

    Once you get the right stuff, when bolted to the adapter the converter studs will poke through the fly wheel holes and you should be able to wiggle the converter studs back-and-forth. If not then it’s too tight,The opposite problem you have now.


    Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  22. Starlinerdude
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 130

    Starlinerdude
    Member
    from Washington

    When you reinstall the tranny once you get the bellhousing bolts started you should be able to stab the converter studs in the flexplate holes and the pilot into the back of the crank and keep checking the converter as you tighten the bolts,years ago I broke a front pump rotor and heard the ping flathead dave mentioned,since then I've always kept a close eye on the converter engagement as I tighten the bolts.
     
  23. And make sure the converter drain plug lines up with the hole in the flexplate.
     
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  24. Aaron65
    Joined: Dec 29, 2005
    Posts: 285

    Aaron65
    Member
    from Michigan

    You may want to check out the front pump when you get this all figured out. I managed to disengage the converter from the pump when I was installing a C4 once, and I ran the engine like you did, wondering why nothing was happening. Yep...the front pump was hammered because the converter wasn't engaged right. Yours might have been too far away to do damage, but I'd want to check before buttoning everything back up. Good luck!
     
  25. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 273

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Shame on me for not checking the converter to flywheel closer to begin with..The measurements for the block to flywheel were in limits according to the instructions..So there seemed to be more than adequate clearance with the trans/converter. Since not having enough seemed to be the focus on the swap..I am concerned the vendors will probably throw this problem back on me at the end of the day...I have approx 7/8 " of flywheel engagement into the bell housing...If I pull the converter out to this depth as seen in the second picture..There is No engagement whatsoever in the front pump.So I don't think I damaged it.? I installed it off the floor by myself and I did not have to force the transmission on the mounting studs or use the nuts to drawl it forward to seat .. Converter was seated completely in the pump before the installation and the only experience I have with automatic transmissions are GM..In which the converter can me wiggled forward in the flywheel holes after the assembly is bolted together which I had to do the same with this installation....It's a custom 164t flywheel in the kit...The converter has 11 1/2 " bolt pattern..I wonder what is the application the supplied converter actually fits?
     

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  26. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,801

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    Please fill me in on something.
    If the car was flathead powered and was connected to a C4 transmission using a Flat O adapter kit, then why are you installing the Speedway adapter kit ?
     
    Boden, X38 and town sedan like this.
  27. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 273

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    The transmission that was in the car was junk. Seller of car stated “It acted a little funny “. More BS. I live in rural West Virginia. There is no shops in this area close by that rebuild transmissions. Within 50 miles or so that has any kind of good reputation.And other than a shop owned by a relative by marriage that for numerous reasons I choose not to do business there. Second there were intermittent starter issues with initial conversion. Also the as purchased transmission was a so called Green Dot C4. I felt the original transmission had a pump issue. ?? I have no way to check it. Nor have I ever rebuilt an automatic. With all that said. We wanted to start fresh. Also for whatever reason it was cheaper to buy the kit than just the transmission alone from Speedway.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
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  28. Kevin Ardinger
    Joined: Aug 31, 2019
    Posts: 247

    Kevin Ardinger

    The original transmission probably didn’t have enough converter clearance and eventually ate the pump out of it. That would be my guess anyway. Torque converter clearance is pretty critical.


    Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  29. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,801

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    Okay well that explains it a little bit.
    I would probably have just used the flat O kit and installed the new transmission.

    The other parts of the Speedway kit could probably have been sold if you wanted.

    The flat O kit was proven to work and the only real issue was the transmission and the starter.

    I used a flat O kit for my Y Block and I was concerned that the starter would be an issue as I know they can be with the conversion kits.

    My kit came with a starter drive to use on a Ford starter and I’ve heard that they are less than reliable.

    Sounds like you experienced that too.

    If you do a little searching you will find that guys before you have experienced starter problems with the Speedway kit too.

    My solution was to call Gene at Flat O and ask him if there was a better way to go with the starter.

    He said yes and sold me a little compact high torque mini starter that works flawlessly.
     
  30. Eric Satterfield
    Joined: Aug 2, 2018
    Posts: 273

    Eric Satterfield
    Member

    Symptoms were. Sluggish to engage. And after a 5-6 mile road trip. It got so hot it was spewing fluid at high pressure out of the vent. Level was right on. Not low or high on fluid. I can say the new starter sounded good when I started it. It seemed to have bendix issues with the Flt/Mat kit.
     

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