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Projects Build thread: 1959 Edsel Villager wagon

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by castirondude, Apr 23, 2013.

  1. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    Haha, before I was born I think! I'd be a heck of a lot more embarassed to have a prius or "smart car" (it's not the buyer that's smart, it's the manufacturer who sold you half a car for double the price)

    Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
     
  2. outlaw256
    Joined: Jun 26, 2008
    Posts: 2,023

    outlaw256
    Member

    i love that half a car part now thats funny and true! i passed oner of the smartcars on the interstate not long ago,i was laughing so hard i run off the damn road!i have never seen one up close before. my god those things look funny when someone is sittin in the drivers seat...lol
     
  3. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    They actually did something like it in the 50's, a rear engine car with a bench where the whole front was a door. They advertised the convenience, the car was so short you could just drive it forward up against the curb instead of parallel parking - and then step right out of the front of the car onto the curb. -- Man, having one of those setup with an olds 455 toronado would be a total riot.. :D

    Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
     
  4. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    Alright, I got my Bob Drake reproduction tank. As you can see it's an impeccable replica of the original. My original tank has fully depreciated...

    [​IMG]

    I pulled out the interior, the floor is in really good shape. I may have to cut the transmission tunnel larger to fit the transmission though - but first I'm going to try fitting it and see what it all looks like.

    [​IMG]

    In the meanwhile I got my oil pan painted & dried so I can try fitting that as well this weekend.

    [​IMG]

    Then the ugly, boring, tedious part .. laying out the EFI harness and figure out how to make it work in the Edsel... :-(

    [​IMG]
     
  5. greg
    Joined: Dec 5, 2006
    Posts: 537

    greg
    Member

    It looks like its coming along great!! If you get depressed, just look at some pics of mine.;)
    Keep the updates coming.
     
  6. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    I was going to wait till the first of may and then ping you for an update ! :)

    I've been burning the midnight oil trying to make progress here.
    I'm going out there right now. Trying to get the passenger side suspension together. Cleaned it 2 days ago, painted it yesterday, install today. Start fiddling with the engine tomorrow.

    Frankly it's a lot less work than the '28. At least a car like this is basically roadworthy, you don't have to re-engineer the steering and suspension for it to be usable.
     
  7. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    My o/t daily driver is a carbed 460 + C6 and I'm doing about 12 mpg. Big upgrade from the original 351M that had half the power at a savings of 1 MPG.

    I have done the math and figured going from 12 -> 14 MPG is not worth the time and expense to take out a good C6, but if you think the C6 is on its way out then the E4OD is a great upgrade. Get a Baumann controller and have the shift pattern any way you desire

    The AOD is nice & all but the cost of the adapter + having it built to deal with big block power makes it not as attractive as it sounds initially. They are great for a 302 though. In fact I have 2 302 + AOD parts cars here that have a pink dot on their title :D
     
  8. TexasSpeed
    Joined: Nov 2, 2009
    Posts: 4,610

    TexasSpeed
    Member

    Yeah. I saw that one as well. There were three on CL locally at one point but I'm waist-deep in a hot rod project and don't have the funds for another old car. One of these days, I suppose.

    But I can't help but look. It's literally self-inflicted torture.. They weren't kidding when they said this is a disease. ;)


    Posted from the TJJ App for iPhone & iPad
     
  9. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    Do you have pictures / build thread?
     
  10. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    Well, the engine is in the car! Currently just a mock fit.

    The transmission is about 2.5" below the frame. I'm thinking of making a skid plate just in case. The old transmission fit up inbetween the frame rails.

    OR, I could cut the floor and lift the transmission up. The tunnel doesn't need to be any wider, just taller. IIRC there was about 2" of space below the seat.

    Thoughts?
    Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
     
  11. 60widewhitez
    Joined: Apr 4, 2006
    Posts: 421

    60widewhitez
    Member

    Neat wagon. It will definitely be better than sitting and rotting! I love Edsels!
     
  12. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    Yeap it sat for 40 years! Hopefully I will still be driving it 40 years from now.

    Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
     
  13. Dragon Wagons
    Joined: Oct 4, 2009
    Posts: 122

    Dragon Wagons
    Member
    from SLC, Utah

    Nope sorry no build thread..

    Yeah you should raise the trans to be level with the bottom of the frame or above. It's NOT as simple as just lifting the tail-shaft. You need to look at he pinion angle coming of the trans, so the drive line will function properly. This could mean the entire engine and trans assembly may need to go up, or not all depending on the angle off the tail-shaft.


    Ideally the angles between the transmission output shaft and the driveshaft, and the driveshaft and the pinion will be equal but in opposite directions.


    Maybe this will help

    http://www.carcraft.com/howto/91758/
     
  14. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    yea what I have heard is that the yoke from the transmission and the rear axle should be at the same angle relative to the ground.. with my '28 I just eyeballed it and it was fine. I think here also , the engine and transmission are pretty long, 2" doesn't constitute much of an angle. I was mostly worrying about the transmission bottoming out.


    Here, look how long this thing is :D

    [​IMG]
     
  15. greg
    Joined: Dec 5, 2006
    Posts: 537

    greg
    Member

    "My '59 Edsel Wagon Custom "
    check out this build thread, its a big block in a wagon, but not the od trans.
    I would think the height would be the same, just a longer and fatter trans.
     
  16. sololobo
    Joined: Aug 23, 2006
    Posts: 8,051

    sololobo
    Member

    nice save bro, love them long roofs. rock n roll. ~sololobo~
     
  17. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    Wow I had missed that one ! Subscribed :)
    There's also a guy on youtube with a 460 in a '58 edsel pacer
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pleOEDSVdH0

    I was able to fit the engine, with a few small compromises:

    1. I will either have to ditch the fan and have electric pusher fans -or- modify the radiator support to bring the radiator forward. I need to hold all the pieces in place & do some precise measurements to see what can be done there
    2. I had to grind a few notches in the bracket for the upper a-arm
    3. The transmission tunnel does not need to be wider but a little taller. Currently the only contact point is at the back of the torque converter, so it will be low impact to slope that back a little farther under the dash. Then the transmission follows the body line so you're using the space effectively
    4. If I want to tuck the whole transmission inside the frame rails though, the tunnel will have to be taller .. so far it looks like it does NOT need to be wider so it doesn't interfere with the driver's legroom
    I'll take some pictures this weekend.
     
  18. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    I opened up the engine and boyoboyoboy it's all spiffy inside !

    One curiosity is that the connecting rods and caps were all numbered, almost like the engine was rebuilt at some point...?? I don't think Ford would number the connecting rods right?? This engine came out of an RV with 54k on the odometer so that doesn't seem like something that would have been rebuilt.. :confused:

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    I checked a few of the cylinders with my handheld colonoscopy .. I mean boroscope tool, and they look very clean inside with very nice crosshatching:


    [​IMG]


    The picture is a little vague but on the real screen the crosshatching looked nice.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. greg
    Joined: Dec 5, 2006
    Posts: 537

    greg
    Member

    That motor looks better than the one I just rebuilt.:)
     
  20. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    haha! Yea I was impressed how nice the engine looks. The newer 460's have cast aluminum valve covers which seal much better than the older stamped steel ones. The oil pan also has a strip on it to help even out the pressure and prevent the bolts from denting the pan. So they do a good job staying clean.

    The heavy duty 460's were painted grey from the factory, looks nice.

    [​IMG]
     
  21. OahuEli
    Joined: Dec 27, 2008
    Posts: 5,022

    OahuEli
    Member
    from Hawaii

    Interestingly enough, the numbers on the rods suggest a '69 429 but this may just be the cap casting. C9AE-B, C=1960s, 9 =1969 etc. What numbers are cast on the rods?
    Your motor has definitely been gone through, Ford never numbered them with white ink. The D9TE cast number on the block indicates a 1979 truck block. As an example and referencing the earlier info I posted, numbers starting with D indicate a 1970 or later casting. The 429 on my engine stand has 4U stamped in the crank, indicating a 1970 429 crank. The block is D1VE, indicating a 1971 or later block. The D0VE on the heads indicates a 1970 72 cc head. On the rods there is a D0OE casting number and they're pretty beefy.
    Check your heads; do you have screw in rocker studs or is it a cast pedestal? Screw in studs indicate an earlier, better head, the cast pedestals are later run of the mill castings.
    Sounds like you might have some interesting stuff there.
     
  22. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    Yes I'm fairly familiar with the 460, this is the 5th one I own, including that I built 10 years ago with a 1976 (D3xx) block and 1970 heads (D0VE). This cross breed gives you 9.5:1 compression which I think is the sweet spot. The nice thing about the D0VE heads is the studs allow you to compensate for pushrod length if you get the special nuts. The block had 80k miles on it and looked good so I used it as is. I've driven it another 130k miles so far, starting to get a little choppy in the morning now but runs good otherwise.

    I have another set of D0VE heads laying here for a rainy day :D I scored two sets at the Portland,OR swap meet for $150 back in 2003. The D3VE and later heads have stamped steel rockers, the C8VE and D0VE are cast. I think the stamped steel rockers are fine, just not as hot roddable.

    Looking at the engines I have had I know for sure Ford did not change the casting if the part stayed the same. Whether the C9xx caps remained into the 90's I don't know? The block is D9 so that would be '79. I don't think the blocks and bottom end changed for fuel injection. Only the intake manifold and heads (and distributor). I've seen folks putting carburetors on these manifolds, works fine actually. Just leave the injectors to plug the holes.

    Somehow I don't see any Exxx or Fxxx casting on the head - only numbers. The newer heads can easily be distinguished though because they have cast aluminum valve covers with bolts through the center, instead of the stamped steel covers with bolts along the edges.

    Yea I'm a little perplexed that an RV would have a rebuilt engine. Usually folks drive them long distances a few times a year so the engines hardly wear at all, and the body falls apart long before the engine is bad. That's why RV's are usually good sources of engines. Maybe it happened under warranty because of a bad engine.
     
  23. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    BTW this grey paint is also on top of the emissions label - that was actually my first clue that the engine wasn't 100% original. When I saw the numbers painted on the connecting rods I was sure somebody had done something. I checked that the numbers on the rods matched the actual cylinders they went to and they were all correct :)
     
  24. OahuEli
    Joined: Dec 27, 2008
    Posts: 5,022

    OahuEli
    Member
    from Hawaii

    Sounds like you're gonna have a sweetie to power that wagon, I've no idea what the weight is but the old girl oughta fly once she's up to speed!
     
  25. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    Well the engine is in! It took me 2 days to get the engine in the way I wanted, and to build some mounts. I had to keep grinding pieces off the exhaust studs and off the upper A-arms to clear the exhaust manifold. Somehow things are not symmetrical either, when I get the engine lined up nicely between the frame rails, the driver's side mount is about half an inch closer than the passenger side mount.

    Here I'm using the 2 ratchet straps to pull the engine at an angle to slide in. Also using the straps to keep it from rotating. I lowered the car close to the ground so I didn't have to lift the engine 8' in the air. I always get a little nervous using these Chinese cherry pickers to lift anything real high.

    [​IMG]


    That rusty thing behind the oil filter is actually an oil cooler. Pretty slick it has that, I wouldn't mind having that on all my engines.

    [​IMG]


    You can see the old mount still on the engine. I ended up tossing that, couldn't use it for this. The engine needs to be very close to the crossmember otherwise it will be above the hoodline.

    It almost seems like another accessory was mounted on the bottom left at some point, but I don't know what it would be.. :confused: All the standard stuff of P/S A/C alternator and water pump is there.

    [​IMG]

    And, it's in! I actually got it back a little further after taking this picture, but nonetheless I'll have to customize my radiator support to fit the radiator in there. I plan to bring the radiator forward 2". There is a lot of room, so shouldn't be too big of a deal.

    [​IMG]



    Here are the mounts.. I used the bushings from a 1985 F350 front leaf spring, they are nice and thick. They are 2" outside diameter, and 2" inside diameter pipe is commonly available. And the bolts will allow some flex, as well as prevent the mount from coming apart when the rubber deteriorates.

    You can see the left mount is lower than the one on the right..

    In order to have enough space for the bushings, the bushings are actually between the standoffs that are cast in the block. If I had welded the pipe to a flat plate there would not have been enough room.

    I kept the brackets wide so I'd have some forward/backward adjustment space. I want to slide the engine as far backward as possible without having the oil pan hit the crossmember. I'll add some rubber washers to keep the bushing located on the bolt.

    [​IMG]
     
  26. greg
    Joined: Dec 5, 2006
    Posts: 537

    greg
    Member

    Keep on wedging.:D
    I didnt think anything would look big in that engine bay, But I do believe you have filled it up.:)
    looks good.
     
  27. thebugbox
    Joined: Nov 29, 2009
    Posts: 255

    thebugbox
    Member

    Love the long roofs! Subscribed
     
  28. Fender351
    Joined: Apr 18, 2010
    Posts: 69

    Fender351
    Member
    from Deland, FL

    Nice! A higher-tech version of mine! I bet that blue/white color combo was GORGEOUS in it's day! And do you have a radio delete plate??

    I used '78 F250 motor mounts for mine. Obviously they bolt right to the block, the only modification was drilling a second hole in each mounting plate on the cross member for the second post on the mount. The "V" of the block didn't quite jive with the "V" of the mounting plates, so I spaced it with some 1/4" gusset plates from the lumber section. The setup yielded a nice low motor (but not with the pan below the crossmember!) and back hugging the firewall.

    I thought the C6 would have clearance issues with the trans tunnel too. I cut an "I" shape in the floor where the transmission tunnnel meets the cowl/toeboard and bent it back. After the trans was mounted and settled in, I didn't need the extra room, just banged the floor back down and laid some body sealer. (In the pic with the laptop)

    As far as the radiator core support, I notched the rounded corners to fit the bigger 429 radiator. For mounts, I welded the " [ " shaped pieces from the '69 core support with the rubber inserts. Because of my engine's setback, I didnt really need to move the radiator forward, but the '69's mounting tabs are long enough you could probably scoot them forward before tacking them to the core support. Or you seem handy enough, make your own with the same design.
     

    Attached Files:

  29. Fender351
    Joined: Apr 18, 2010
    Posts: 69

    Fender351
    Member
    from Deland, FL

    Maybe the missing accessory is a smog pump? No one's gonna miss that!!! Haha
     
  30. castirondude
    Joined: Jan 26, 2012
    Posts: 496

    castirondude
    Member

    Well, progress seems to have slowed to a steady trickle over the summer. Seems like there were a lot of tedious little things that were neither very exciting to work on and very pleasing to the sometimes critical eyes of the HAMB.

    My original thought going into this project was, if I put my shoulders under it for 2 months orso I'd be able to at least drive it around, but then I ran into so many steps I'd have to skip.. sure, the car steered, but no power steering and it was totally sloppy. No power brakes, single system. Vacuum windshield wipers. And so forth. And retrofitting that stuff involves cutting and welding, and you can't do that after the car is painted. And it's hard to paint when the car is all together, better to do it when it's apart, and dry in your garage, so it only makes sense to just push through...

    At any rate I need to catch up on my pictures..!

    The engine I have came from a 1990 E350 motorhome, which had a rear sump pan and external dipstick. I had to buy a car style front sump pan, which didn't have a dipstick provision. So I cut a hole and welded in a little pipe.

    [​IMG]



    I did this below for leak testing, on the engine I will have a 45' elbow to go up. I then go to a copper tube I soldered into the fitting. I originally tried TIG welding it, but somehow the brass doesn't want to cooperate, I guess it doesn't behave the same way as copper. It stuck but it wasn't clean enough, still some minor leaks.. so I cleaned it up, heated it with a torch and flowed solder on it, now it doesn't leak.

    I'm not sure how high in the pan the fluid level will be, hopefully high enough to just be in the straight part of the tube. In hindsight I should have welded the pipe on at a 45' angle so the dipstick goes up and down easier.
     

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