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Technical Breathing life into a 283 - Jr Fuel Destined

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 402BOSSMAN, Nov 12, 2017.

  1. 402BOSSMAN
    Joined: Jul 26, 2015
    Posts: 343

    402BOSSMAN
    Member

    Dug up an old Car Craft from March 1967. This was where I got the original idea for this project but to put my own twist on it with more modern parts. Hopefully you all can zoom in enough to read the article. A few articles behind this one it goes into building a FED.
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  2. 402BOSSMAN
    Joined: Jul 26, 2015
    Posts: 343

    402BOSSMAN
    Member

    So tonight I finally took the opportunity to check the cam bore alignment in reference to the main bore centerline using a BHJ Cam Tru Fixture.
    IMG_20180710_051825_477.jpg
    There are centering rings at the front and rear of the block that sit in the finished main bores and a 2" precision ground shaft slides through.
    20180710_052832.jpg
    The fixture is based off of this centerline as everything else that will be machined from it moving forward. Here is a pic of the gauge to check location in the bores that slides into the end plates.
    20180710_042229.jpg
    I started by centering the fixture off of the rear cam journal as not wanting to disrupt the location for cam gear/distributor gear mesh.
    20180710_042458.jpg
    Once that is established you check the other end and decide if a correction is in order. This isn't horrible and could be corrected with a shorter timing set. I may consider enlarging the cam tunnel so I can put a 50mm cam core in it. Decision....decisions......
    20180710_045732.jpg
     
  3. 402BOSSMAN
    Joined: Jul 26, 2015
    Posts: 343

    402BOSSMAN
    Member

    So another update on my project starting with a little back story.

    A close friend of mine has had a nice Hilborn Injector along with some older 5 spoke wheels that has been collecting dust for years in their garage. I learned that these parts have been in their family since the early 70's when they ran a front engine dragster out of the Omaha, Nebraska area. The story goes that the shop that housed the dragster, spare parts, engines, etc burned to the ground - a total loss (I believe it was up in Waterloo, NE). So these items are what was left luckily not in the building at the time. About a year ago I got a wild idea to pursue building my own front engine dragster. My friend came over to donate the wheels towards my effort. I was pretty pumped for that, one less thing to source and an item that they would like to see used again. Along they way I inquired about the injector having never set eyes on it and they were not wanting to let it go for the sake of it being in the family so long. I understood that and left it at that. In the meantime I had sourced a few other injectors and purchased them, one being for this build. Well, over the weekend my friend got married and I was fortunate to be a groomsmen in it, finally happy to see him tying the knot with a wonderful woman. At the prenuptial dinner he came over to me with a big plastic tote, a smile on his face, and his father noticing what was about to happen walking over in the direction I was seated. He was giving me a groomsmen gift, one that I will never forget and will cherish until the day comes where he may want it back - that Hilborn Injector! Got to say I was pretty choked up knowing the history behind this and the fact it is practically a family heirloom to a racing family at this point. They knew I'm the only person they know who would cherish and actually use it. So now that I have this injector it changes my original plan slightly and I'm excited to breathe some lift back into this injector. Here is what I received that was inside that plastic tote.

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    This is the model number, 2-3/16 in size for a SBC
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    This is the serial number #7529
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    Everything is in beautiful shape, just needs a good cleaning.
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    A envelope with original info from Hilborn inside.
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    So, yesterday I contacted the folks at Hilborn to have them look up the build sheets. If you notice the paperwork shows a different model number and serial number vs the numbers on the injector. Hilborn was nice enough to get me both build sheets. So upon further investigation I learned that the front engine dragster they bought had came from California. I can verify that to be true based on the probability of where the paperwork shows it was purchased.
    Screenshot_2018-07-30-20-11-32.png
    #1709 was built in 1963 and purchased from Moon Equipment in California - Cool! This injector unfortunately perished in the fire but I think it's a nice piece to this story.
    Screenshot_2018-07-30-17-27-51.png
    #7529 was built in 1970 and purchased from a local place in Omaha, Nebraska. Everything listed on this sheet matches to a "T" on what the injector has today. Note this injector was built for 302ci so it will be a nice fit on the 301ci I'm building in this thread.
     
  4. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 15,161

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    Damn Nick, I inhale this stuff.
    I've heard a lot of these storys about how Hilborn has records on all the FI units they sold, I don't think there are many companies that did this.
     
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  5. 402BOSSMAN
    Joined: Jul 26, 2015
    Posts: 343

    402BOSSMAN
    Member

    Considering Hilborn started in about 1949, the fact that they are still in business today, and they still have all of the records since basically its inception I find amazing. That says alot about them and their business. I have contacted them on each and every one I have ever worked on (I'm also a dealer for them) and they have sent the build sheets for all so far. I'm convinced they are the only aftermarket company that does this and I appreciate that they do it if you simply ask. I've called piston companies for pistons that are 15 years old and they struggle to find records.
     
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  6. 402BOSSMAN
    Joined: Jul 26, 2015
    Posts: 343

    402BOSSMAN
    Member

    Cleaned out my spraywash cabinet today so I had some nice clean water to wash this Hilborn Injector. Just as I suspected it's super clean under all of that dust and grime it had on it. I removed the stacks and started disassembly from there.
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    The blades were rusted in place so they were a bit tricky to get out. Other than that disassembly went well. The shafts had rust in the slots and a few spots on the exterior of the chromed shafts. Best way I've found to clean them is to let them sit in some Evaporust over night.
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    In the meantime I'm going to take the barrel valve, nozzles, and my fuel pump and get them sent off to Gene Adams to have him flow the assembly and address any issues he comes across. My goal on this is to make it better than new and give it some nice details to catch your eye. More soon.
     
  7. Awesome thread - just the best !
     
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  8. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 20,881

    Deuces
    Member
    from Michigan

    WOW!!!!!......:eek::)
     
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  9. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 9,676

    jimmy six
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This is great to see the machine work and care you are taking when back then a cam, Hilborns, and piston were put in a stock block. They weren't all competitive but lucky some times.
    It will also be very interesting where your nozzles, pills and bypass springs end up since the injection units state gasoline as built. When we ran 80% we had some pretty big nozzles as I remember. I liked to run smaller ones with a 50-60 bypass and atomize the hell out of the fuel; I lost that battle with owner quite a few times.
     
  10. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,184

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    Every time I needed the system flowed, they needed the whole unit and not just the parts, when returned , it was just a bolt on deal. Something I always thought interesting, Hilborn makes a fine piece and so does/did Enderle, but Hilborn injection was predominately used in Sprint Cars and the Enderle was the go to for (Chevy) Jr. Fuel. Both worked exactly the same with the same concept (controled leak). I do remember a weekly ritual with the Hilborn nozzles, was the removal and cleaning them because they have a micro-screen inside that was prone to getting clogged, Where as on my Enderle unit, since the nozzles were seperate from the bodies (and not built in) had just an orfice and would just pass any crud thru it and the ability to change nozzle size cheaply without having to buy a complete nozzle unit. This is just strictly Information and not endorsing
     

    Attached Files:

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  11. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 10,901

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    So can one use the Enderle nozzles in a Hilborn?
     
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  12. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,184

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    Yes, just a shorter nozzle body then is shown (only had a long one), both use 1/8 npt threads in the casting, and since the nozzle body stays in the casting, the threads do not get worn out from changes or cleaning. Enderle uses straight threads and a O-ring on the nozzle to keep in place. Orfice dia flow is the same for both types, But if you want to increase or decrease the dia you have to buy the complete assy from Hilborn vs Just the nozzle from Enderle. I carried a container of Enderle nozzles of varying dia's. $6-$8 vs $45
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
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  13. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 10,901

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    Interesting, I have a Hilborn two port and a bunch of Enderle jets and nozzles, but not much Hilborn stuff.
    The Hilborn nozzles look like the ones in my Crower stack injection unit I have.

    Sorry about the tread jack Nick.
     
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  14. 402BOSSMAN
    Joined: Jul 26, 2015
    Posts: 343

    402BOSSMAN
    Member

    No worries, all good conversations. I found my nozzles where twisted from them trying to get that last turn in. May or may not cause any issue. I sent my stuff off to Gene today with a pump I have. I'll see what he says. If I need nozzles I will have to weight out my options then. Good points on servicing. The screen inside the Hilborn nozzles is to straighten out the fuel and not really meant to catch material though that can happen. He says without the screen the nozzle goes turbulent and you can hear it on the flowbench. Gene said if you stay on top of your fuel system and keep it clean it's all a non issue.

    Today my pops took my stacks down to a local plating company to see about getting them chromed, about 4 weeks out. The shafts are both cleaned and deburred. The blades got cleaned with emery cloth and scotchbrite pads. Blades look to be in pretty good shape so I will reuse them. The hardware will get replaced to be on the safe side.

    As far as nozzle size goes Jimmy Six I will start this off on alcohol first. Need to get used to the car and get a handle on tuning mechanical injection. Once that stuff is sorted out I will likely make the move to the yellow stuff. See how things go first.
     
  15. AHotRod
    Joined: Jul 27, 2001
    Posts: 11,416

    AHotRod
    Member

    Awesome Injector story Nick !
     
  16. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,184

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    For the amount of fuel volume needed for either alc or nitro, I dont consider "turbulance" to be an issue
     
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  17. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 10,901

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    That is some amazing stuff there, but Nick is building a junior fuel car.
    I have a lot of interest in constant flow fuel systems, seems to me that it would take out a bunch of other parts that could fail in a fuel system, in a race car that is. ;)
     
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  18. 402BOSSMAN
    Joined: Jul 26, 2015
    Posts: 343

    402BOSSMAN
    Member

    I asked Gene about the screen inside the nozzles and relayed the info above. It does straighten out the flow path and the turbulence can be heard while flowing injectors if the screens are not in there. It makes sense to me with years of flowing cylinder heads how this can effect the flow path. A modern Nitro car you may as well turn on a garden hose like the video above. I think fuel is introduced in 5 spots or so. Not anything near like what I will be dealing with. Far less complicated and a baby 301ci engine.
     
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  19. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,184

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    If thats the advice and type of injector that you want to go with-- Great go for it, you will not be disapointed, we ran Hilborn down nozzles in our heads (Dan Gurney's idea) on our 410 sprint motor and they were very long, picked up 50+ hp over conventional nozzles in the manifold. they were straight and did not have the deflector tip design, the purpose was to straight shoot the fuel at the intake valve opening. When the time comes and you dyno this piece, get me the hilborn jet size and I will see if I have the same in Enderle and will send them to you to install (very simple) and with just that swap, see if the dyno numbers change up-down-no change, I would like to know the results
    upload_2018-8-3_10-28-27.jpeg
     
  20. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,184

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    The vid was just something interesting and no way was it to represent the system on this engine build. but it does show "liquid" fuel (alc and nitro)volume that gets injected into the cylinder and not vapor volume as it would be on gasoline
     
  21. 402BOSSMAN
    Joined: Jul 26, 2015
    Posts: 343

    402BOSSMAN
    Member

    You are absolutely correct with getting the nozzle as close to the back of the valve as possible on alcohol, it does make more power in that location for that fuel. I know I will have to buy another larger set of nozzles for running alcohol. This model I will have to keep them in the standard location, there are no bosses on the backside to try and machine (would be tricky to machine anyhow) for the nozzles that you have pictured above. I figured I would get the original ones flowed to check condition, get a tune for gas, buy new nozzles for alcohol, and get the tune for that setup while Gene has it all there.
    20180801_202238.jpg
     
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  22. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 9,676

    jimmy six
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    From my limited knowledge a Hilborn 7 or 7A nozzle is .021". When I put Enderle nozzles in my Algon unit where one injector fed 2 cylinders; I worked from there on gasoline.
    I can't remember the alky nozzle on our 12 port head but I'm pretty sure the 80% nitro nozzle in the 50's and our bypass was in the 80's range.. We did not use any high speed because our rpm was low. Joe and conversed with Gene a lot.
     
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  23. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,184

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    Do you know why the down nozzle injectors make more power?? and you can machine the head to accept them, been done before, but it was outlawed in Nos Jr.Fuel and only injectors in the intake manifold are allowed
     
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  24. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 10,901

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    Makes more room for air in the intake runner?
     
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  25. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,184

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    Bingo, and because Alc burns as a liquid instead of a vapor, it as a solid can be introduced to the combustion chamber much later or when the intake valve opens.
     
  26. 150J/F
    Joined: Jan 2, 2010
    Posts: 239

    150J/F
    Member

    Later model Hilborn injectors have the nozzles located to the inside of the ports
    instead of the outside. They use straight nozzles that can be 5 or 6 inches long.
    Made a big difference on my Jr. Fuel engine.

    MB
     
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  27. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,184

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    It would, any time you can increase the volume of air on top of the valve, you will make power
     
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  28. Roothawg
    Joined: Mar 14, 2001
    Posts: 21,770

    Roothawg
    Member

    This build intrigues me. I have a 301 in the Fly that was just kinda thrown together compared to this build. I would love to take it to this level, problem is, I can't afford to invest the money to a machinist to do what you have done here. Hats off for the documentation.
     
  29. Motor_Psycho
    Joined: Jan 21, 2008
    Posts: 81

    Motor_Psycho
    Member

    As an engine builder it's nice to see someone take the time to document and explain in detail what goes into building a motor properly. Top notch work, going to enjoy following this thread, as handy as I'm working on my Uncle to put nitro in his injected mouse FED!

    I used the same line hone at my first engine building job, nice bit of kit
     
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  30. Sky Six
    Joined: Mar 15, 2018
    Posts: 1,806

    Sky Six
    Member
    from Arizona

    absolutely fascinating thread and what a great job you are doing. This information is going into a file cabinet for future reference. Thank you.
     
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