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Bracket Racing vrs Heads Up Racing

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by The Shocker, Jan 18, 2010.

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  1. dragrcr50
    Joined: Jul 25, 2005
    Posts: 3,865

    dragrcr50
    Member

    the main thing is you want to race. that says it all.............hope to see you in okla this summer
     
  2. The Shocker
    Joined: Dec 30, 2004
    Posts: 3,538

    The Shocker
    Member

    I will be there bracket racing ,heads up ,or index.Great track and good people there :)...
     
  3. Lucky3
    Joined: Dec 9, 2009
    Posts: 652

    Lucky3
    Member

    I'm a long time drag racer and will take it either way !!!!

    Just go racin' and go often !!!!!

    C ya at the Digs !

    Several Nostalgia events here in Oklahome, come see us..

    Off to Indy in June....
     
  4. ol gasser
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 333

    ol gasser
    Member
    from here

    No thanks ,I still have my ride .Last raced in 1976 when the bracket crap started at englishtown and atco. I only race now when they have heads up.Like it was .Didn't kill it as all the young guys love it.Well it's you guys time now so have fun.When they get back to real racing maybe i will make a comeback.
     
  5. Cool man!!!!
     
  6. stretch 1320
    Joined: Oct 1, 2006
    Posts: 1,861

    stretch 1320
    Member

    I tried bracket racing about 20 or so years ago and to me it sucked, because there are too many way's to get beat! For the last 20 or so years I've been heads-up racing, to me, thats all I know how to drag race! I'm with Tudor, make 'em all run manually shifted transmissions with a clutch. No Lenco's, No Liberty's, they have to be "real manually shifted" no push button, air shifted or electric shifted crap and no bracket racing aids! Thats just my 2cents worth!
     
  7. Casey
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,293

    Casey
    Member Emeritus

    yep and little river could be the next one to go! god I love that place.

    the hill country show and go is back on this year and even though I think heads up racing against unequal cars is stupid

    I told them they should have a heads up class for all the people that think thats neat :confused: to appeal to everyone we need to keep this track alive
     
  8. P426
    Joined: Mar 28, 2009
    Posts: 1,023

    P426
    BANNED
    from New Jersey

    Along with that new style of 'racing' came sandbagging, short-shifting to get a thousand runs on an engine, etc. before rebuild; less than professional-looking race cars, e.g., gutted, primered, over-tired, etc., and the increased appearance of non-performance-model body styles and "econo rails." Sure, bracket cars look better now, with many professionally prepared (and for some time now) but during those early years many cars were crude-looking and banged-up.

    From the fans' point of view that spells: BORING. Just look at the 'packed' stands. I'll never forget what one ex-racer (who last raced at Raceway Park in Englishtown, NJ in the mid-1970s), once told me. The very first thing he noticed after he returned to the track (with his son's Jr. Dragster) after a fifteen-year hiatus: "there's nobody in the stands."

    And I can never, ever, ever forget the all of a sudden appearance of a plethora of single four barrel, automatic transmission-equipped race cars, especially two-speed Powerglides. WTF? What happened to all those cool four speed, tunnel ram-equipped race cars which were the norm, I wondered to myself one Sunday afternoon circa 1977?

    I rest my case.

    Pete
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2010
  9. P426
    Joined: Mar 28, 2009
    Posts: 1,023

    P426
    BANNED
    from New Jersey

    Yep, I remember that year too well. It was the beginning of the end of cool drag racing at the local level. Remember the full NHRA-style eliminators at Englishtown and other tracks, including Pro/S, F/C and T/F? It's hard to believe that today but that was a reality back then.

    Pete
     
  10. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 3,503

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN


    What if I take 3 degrees of timing out, short shift, or click it at the first MPH light (exactly 1254 ft out) for all my time trials??? Then go to my "RACE" setup for eliminations. That gives me a lot to play with at the finish line, where my bracket racing skills can come into play.

    Things are never as simple black-and-white as it would seem.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2010
  11. davidwilson
    Joined: Oct 8, 2008
    Posts: 595

    davidwilson
    Member
    from Tennessee

    0-310 ci 1 carb = heads up
    311-375 ci 1 carb = heads up
    376 - 427 ci 1 carb = heads up
    428 ci up = heads up
    if you have more than 1
     
  12. davidwilson
    Joined: Oct 8, 2008
    Posts: 595

    davidwilson
    Member
    from Tennessee

    sorry, club hands made a mistake
    continue on:

    if you have more than 1 carb, you get bumped to the next class
    no power adders - ie; turbo, nitrous, blower, nitro

    if you have a power adder, you move to the 428 ci up class
     
  13. Street driven cars heads up... doesn't matter about carb or cubes...!

    Then matched against each other by similar times.

    Heck... I had to do a lot of catching up on the big end to beat "Buzzards" small block coupe!

    Friiggen just enjoyed running the car at a track... and it didn't matter if I won or loss... it was Great running at a track that allowed a bit of leeway for a street roadster!
     
  14. Larry T
    Joined: Nov 24, 2004
    Posts: 7,661

    Larry T
    Member

    Sounds a LOT like index racing.
    And how fair is it to match the guy with a stock 454 in a lightweight coupe against the guy with a built 10,000 rpm 283 in a full sized 55 Chevy?


    There is an arguement against anything you come up with. People are gonna like the rules that give their car the unfair advantage.
    Just go, play, and have fun. Unless part of your fun is bitching about how things are done.
    Larry T
     
  15. bulletproof1
    Joined: Feb 23, 2004
    Posts: 2,080

    bulletproof1
    Member
    from tulsa okla

    when i raced there was a crew cab chevy duelly that ran a 18 something. that guy took home a trophy every weekend. it was funny to watch people either red light or melt down waiting for there light to turn green.he would have half a track lenth head start on people.
     
  16. Robert Wilson
    Joined: Nov 13, 2009
    Posts: 47

    Robert Wilson
    Member

    I liked drag racing when i first went to the drag races in 1962 ran a class with cars that had the same HP to weight ratio heads up who ever got to the finish line first won. Unfortunately a lot of people did not play by the rules. Thats why we have bracket racing. I bracket race and run 7.50 heads up class in the 1/8 mile and 12.00 heads up in the 1/4. These are index classes. As far as i can see it's just a bracket race with a heads up start.A true heads up class would cost a lot of money to be competitive. Like it or not i think bracket racing in my opinion is the way to go from a competitors point of view.


    ROBERT
     
  17. The Shocker
    Joined: Dec 30, 2004
    Posts: 3,538

    The Shocker
    Member

    Man ,i almost forgot about this old thread :)...
     
  18. BARN RAIDER
    Joined: May 24, 2009
    Posts: 4

    BARN RAIDER
    Member

    do you have any pictures of the 68 camaro or the bossanova ? also would like any pictures of wolfmans speed shop, ingear speed shop, speedmasters performance center east west competition or competition sales from killeen texas from 1969-1979.
    also killeen streetscene at mikes frontier chess's of phanton drivein
     
  19. big john d
    Joined: Nov 24, 2011
    Posts: 210

    big john d
    Member
    from ma

    Two tenths classes and heads up 11.o - 11.19 11.2 - 11.39 etc heads up start with breakouts
     
  20. afaulk
    Joined: Jul 20, 2011
    Posts: 1,191

    afaulk
    Member

    I've been racing since the 60s and when i see the words Drag Race, i don't see the word bracket anywhere in there. A Drag Race is supposed to be a contest of speed between 2, count-em, 2 vehicles, not 4, or 6, or 27. A lightweight shouldn't get in the ring with a heavyweight. Most times he will lose (not always). The problem is that even if sensible rules are established, people will cheat and win, caring nothing for their own integrity. Bracket "racing" is nothing more than an exercise in precision driving. Cutting a perfect light and running a consistent E.T. wins. No matter if you're 10 seconds slower than the other "racer". You don't even need to look for the driver in the other lane. What he is doing is doesn't matter.That folks no matter what you may think about it, is NOT RACING.
     
  21. afaulk
    Joined: Jul 20, 2011
    Posts: 1,191

    afaulk
    Member

    Drag racing fans don't care about "bracket Racing". It is like watching paint dry (except louder). What the sport needs are rules, including weight/cubic in./ to create a level playing field that is not cost prohibitive. (example, inspecting and sealing engines). These rules need to be enforced and not changed at the whim of some whiners. If larger venues would step up and do something like this, racers and spectators would come back. Bracket racing, and the expectation that a hobby should pay like a profession have largely ruined our sport.
     
  22. c-10 simplex
    Joined: Aug 24, 2009
    Posts: 1,333

    c-10 simplex
    Member

    i think scales are fairly cheap---relatively speaking. And fast.


    The main problem to me is how to measure/verify cubic inches and do it quickly. If 100 cars show up how are you going to get this done very quickly?

    a) sonic testing?
    b) pull a plug at random and measure that cylinder?
    c) ?


    Having stated all that, it should be obvious that i think heads up--no breakout and/or handicap start no breakout is the way to go. However, it should be understood that tracks need "bread and butter"/main income.

    i think it boils down to: Heads up is for the hard-core racer who is trying to go as fast as possible and is not opposed to spending what it takes to get there. Brackets are for the casual/weekend hobbyist who is into cars/racing/speed etc., but has a more conservative approach to it all. And there's nothing wrong with that either.

    So, you need both. Realistically, i'd say a good mix would be 40% heads up/60% brackets.
     
  23. Larry T
    Joined: Nov 24, 2004
    Posts: 7,661

    Larry T
    Member

    I think the main problems with heads up (at least on a local level) is the time, trouble, and man power it takes to make sure folks aren't bending the rules and the fact that one of the same 2 or 3 top cars in each class are going to take the trophy home every week. Folks get tired of going racing to be first round fodder. They end up parking the racecar and going fishing.
    Brackets and index racing address both these points.
    Larry T
     
  24. c-10 simplex
    Joined: Aug 24, 2009
    Posts: 1,333

    c-10 simplex
    Member

    Right; and i think accurate verification of weight and cubes is good enough for this to work. Ideally, the whole process of teching should take no more than 5 mins from the time the car rolls onto the scale. This way it's 12 cars per hour---problem because it would take 10 hrs to tech in 100 cars. i think 100 cars is a reasonable turnout.

    BUT, after a car is weighed, it can be moved foward for cubic inch verification and another car can be put on the scale. This may cut down tech time. i think 3-5 hrs to tech in 100 cars is reasonable. Also, we should assume that not all 100 cars will probably arrive at the same time anyways.

    The key is being able to measure cubes w/out taking the head(s) off or removing pushrods. Is this possible?
     
  25. ray-jay
    Joined: Feb 23, 2008
    Posts: 200

    ray-jay
    Member
    from Buford GA

    I haven't read all 12 pages but the last 2 posts are on target. For one day events, brackets or index is the only way to go because of the tech inspection issue AND the protest issue. Anytime you have 'class' racing there are going to be protests because there are so many cheaters out there.

    When you start getting into teardowns and measuring various things you need experts doing the verification. Where do you get these guys ??? How much do they cost ??? How much time does this entail ??? What if you had multiple protests ???? Promoters aren't going to want to mess with the headaches.

    The truth is that small time drag racing is a PARTICIPANT sport, not a spectator sport. Now if you combine the racing with a show of some sort then you get the spectators plus lots more participants but still, the drag racing portion is not the major draw.

    What I would like to see is multiple indexes AND a .500 Pro Tree. I tried to get Commerce to go to a .500 Pro Tree back in the early 90's but the track manager had no idea what I was talking about. Having a .500 Pro tree would eliminate a lot of the delay box bs.

    Also, drag racing is really all about the tree. If you think you should be able to cut .600 and .700 lights and still win regularly then I don't have any sympathy for you when you lose most of the time.
     
  26. SKULL ORCHARD
    Joined: Jul 22, 2009
    Posts: 431

    SKULL ORCHARD
    Member
    from KS
    1. The Gas House Gang

    center streer cars need to be in thier own class,dotd last year had them in ccs class
     
  27. Bad Banana
    Joined: Jun 20, 2008
    Posts: 829

    Bad Banana
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I didn't read all of this but the reality is that the tracks are partially to blame for the "boringness" of bracket racing. Drag strips all seem to be built with the spectators, announcers, everybody focused on the starting line. That was cool 50 years ago when it was rare to see someone actually get the front wheels off the ground. It was a rare sight and everyone one wanted to see that. Today, you can see street cars do wheelies.

    Bracket racing is designed to have as close of a finish as possible at the FINISH LINE. However, there are usually only two people (the involved drivers) who get to see how close it really is. Do you realize that most tracks you can't get anywhere near the finish line as a spectator? :confused: OK... someone will now point out the danger with high speed cars on the brakes, etc.. Well, honestly, top end crashes at bracket races are rare but there is that danger. So.. with the cost of video cameras and even big screen TVs dropping, broadcast the finish on big TVs for everyone to see. Slow motion replay etc.. to show how close it really is. There are ways to allow spectators to sit at the finish line safely (Norwalk, OH has stands at their 1/4 mile finish line).

    Also, from reading parts of this thread, it is clear many folks don't comprehend how bracket racing works. Tracks should do a better job of explaining how the timing systems work, reaction timers, how to stage, how to read all the numbers on a time slip, what they mean, etc.. Educate the customer to your track so they aren't first round fodder every week and get pissed off and "hate bracket racing" like so many on this thread.

    Score boards are another issue I have. Many of them show the dial in and then show the ET as soon as the cars cross the stripe. Unless you memorize what each car was dialed (I'm not good at that), you forget (me) who dialed what and who was under, over, dead-on, etc... :confused: That could be solved by the ET showing up under the dial in where most have MPH now and LEAVE THE FREAKING DIAL IN UP THERE!!. AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT SEES THIS??? MPH doesn't matter at all in a bracket race so STOP SHOWING IT!!. While you are at it, make break outs read in red numbers and dead-on or over numbers read in green numbers. It isn't expensive technology. A casual observer would be able to right away know who won and why..

    How does this relate to nostalgia type drag racing? If everyone is watching the finish line, drivers are less likely to sandbag because it is painfully obvious to everyone watching and the "Boos" can and will ensue causing embarrassment and shame for the offending driver :D;). The way it is now, the cars are a 1/4 mile away and it is hard for anyone to tell who is doing what down there and no one knows how close or wide the gap is at the finish.. How much more interesting would it be if every gasser, altered, FED etc... was within a car length of each other at the finish line and you are right there to watch it happen?

    Bracket racing is a challenging sport no matter your opinion. What do you know that pays as much as $100,000 to win and is "easy"? Don't knock it if you have never really tried it. I don't like car shows but some folks spend a lot of money and effort on it so they must get some sort of thrill out of it. It isn't my thing but I don't get in their face and knock it either.:)

    If you think drag cars today should race heads up based on cubic inch and weight, they already have that. It is called NHRA Competition Eliminator or NHRA Pro Stock. Start with about $1M in Comp and $5M in P/S and go have fun. The guy with the most money will win 99% of the time.... always. :rolleyes: What fun is that for either the competitors or the spectators?
     
  28. Kenneth S
    Joined: Dec 15, 2007
    Posts: 1,527

    Kenneth S
    Member

    Bracket, Heads-Up, or Index doesn't matter to me as long as it keeps the drag strips in business, and around for us to race our cars, and to enjoy seeing the racing we love!
     
  29. V4F
    Joined: Aug 8, 2008
    Posts: 4,168

    V4F
    Member
    from middle ca.

    ok , im old , but when we first started racing , no reaction times , brackets such as ... bracket one were the fast cars & it broke down in increments . bracket 2 , 3 etc . the drag strips would set the times for the brackets depending on the cars that showed up . we were always in bracket one because they allowed you more time between rounds . lower brackets ran more often to keep it going . you would pick your bracket & a dial in , then you raced cars only in your bracket . it seemed more than fair to us then . now it is .... super pro , pro , etc. i dont see that much differences from the old days except for reaction times & lots of computers , even in the pits to tell you what to dial . i think the old "run whatcha brung" was better . we always had fun in bracket one ! FED , so time between rounds was important for cooling down . love the old ways ...................... steve
     
  30. Larry T
    Joined: Nov 24, 2004
    Posts: 7,661

    Larry T
    Member

    Bracket racing was fun back in the mid 70's. Pretty much like everyone was running off their own record. Sure there were a few sandbaggers, but they didn't win anymore than anyone else. Electronics killed the fun for me. Delay boxes, stutter boxes, crossover boxes, throttle stops------sometimes I'm suprised they even put drivers in the cars.
    Larry T
     
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