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Bracket Racing vrs Heads Up Racing

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by The Shocker, Jan 18, 2010.

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  1. Big Block Bill
    Joined: May 14, 2009
    Posts: 300

    Big Block Bill
    Member

    ________________________________________________________________

    They have several organizations for just that. They usually tour about 5 or 6 local tracks during the season, so it doesn't become a job. I think they are booked in, the track kicks in money and your entry fee. I watched the Gear Jammers when I lived in Charlotte NC. I hear they have 1 or 2 up in the North East.......great racing.
     
  2. AA/Fuel34fordpu
    Joined: Mar 15, 2005
    Posts: 1,267

    AA/Fuel34fordpu
    Member

    I think index racing is the way to go
     
  3. Big Block Bill
    Joined: May 14, 2009
    Posts: 300

    Big Block Bill
    Member

    _______________________________________________________________

    I beg to differ...........the sanctioning bodies indeed do search out a single combo to penalize....not across the board. I watched this guy Buddy ingersoll years ago with a SS Olds, kept refactoring the car, refactored it out of competition. He had a Turbo Pinto that they refactored every race, pushed him to the point of breaking stuff at every race. He then switced to a D/MP car..... wanted a Corvette, better suited for the class, but he knew he would get killed if he started to win, so he built a early camaro, that ran well, but didn't set the world on fire. He figured NHRA would have to refactor every camaro in existance if his worked. Then he built a BB/AT Buick Regal....he dominated the eliminator, NHRA disbanded the class and the car was obsolete. He fought NHRA, they agreed to let him run P/S if he could qualify. First time out he ran in the 7s and qualified and was runner up to Bob Glidden. Well, the likes of Glidden, Johnson and others were not happy about getting showed up by 269 cu in so he was kicked out again. And that is just one guy with several cars, and he is not alone.
     
  4. Big Block Bill
    Joined: May 14, 2009
    Posts: 300

    Big Block Bill
    Member

    _______________________________________________________________

    I guess you haven't checked out some of these street race type cars that are now in the 6's on radial street tires and just a bit faster with a 10W tire. That eliminates the tire restriction. Here are a few examples that failed along the way. AHRA with their GT class, small motors single carb, small tires, back in the day...low 10's. NHRA Super/Modified, basically same things.....9 sec ets, IHRA with Factory/Modified, 1 carb, 300 cu in or under, manual shift...... hi 7s in the 80's. The restrictions last for a short period, somebody has the talant and the money and they will always win. You have to limit the investment somehow. Limit the spending, put a ceiling on the investment of the car is the only real way I see to level the field.
     
  5. Big Block Bill
    Joined: May 14, 2009
    Posts: 300

    Big Block Bill
    Member

    ________________________________________________________________

    Here's an example why that will not work. I don't know what you race, but lets say a Nostalgia Gasser, an Anglia, Hillborn Injected, Jericho, maybe 10' Slicks, and you run say 10 flat. Some guy buys last years A/S record holder Camaro say 68 with a 396/375 w/aluminum heads and 9" tires and runs 9:80s all day. How will you feel getting beat week after week by 9"tires, bolt on traction bars.....no speed parts at all. If you pick up by spending a bunch of money, he invests in a se of 12" tires and he has you beat by half an hour. That is a prime example of why limitations are not an answer, not for long anyway. Do you remember the NMCA....street race type cars that started out basic....running mid 9's limited to 10" tires..... now they are well into the 6s. All you need is one guy to say, I want to win..... I sent you a post.....check that out.....maybe that will help.... good luck.......
     
  6. HOTTRODZZ
    Joined: Aug 21, 2006
    Posts: 335

    HOTTRODZZ
    Member

    Real Drag Racing is heads up or handicaped - it is based on the continued performance improvements of the driver, drivetrain, crew & car - the guy who gets there first wins.

    The ( Brackets ) is not a race or racing - it is a ( competition ).
     
  7. Pitbullgoingpostal
    Joined: Jan 2, 2009
    Posts: 408

    Pitbullgoingpostal
    Member

    Two classes for each tire size. Such as 10.5 normally aspirated, and 10.5 unlimited (or some call outlaw) where anything goes.

    Also, for friendly competition within classes; shoe polish whatever time you want on the window. Run heads up. You beat the other guy, you win. You beat the time on your window, you lose. Drivers and spectators can "negotiate" all they want. Drivers can sandbag all they want. You beat the time you wrote on the window, you lost.
     
  8. Pitbullgoingpostal
    Joined: Jan 2, 2009
    Posts: 408

    Pitbullgoingpostal
    Member

    By the way, racing will NEVER be a level playing field. If the Boy Scouts can't make a soap box derby level, what makes any of us think a rulebook full of classes for real cars can?
     
  9. american opel
    Joined: Dec 14, 2006
    Posts: 1,222

    american opel
    Member
    from ohio

    i went to a race last year that had a 10th to the negative rule.you do your two or three time tryels and they take the fastest time and your dialin is a tenth faster.they lined the cars up as close to there indexs as possable to give the fans a good looking race.yes buy the end you could have a 9sc.car running against a 12sec.car but alot of people cheered for the slower car with less money in it.i have also raced index class and do like it but sometimes my car is off the mark so i have to run in a slower index just to be able to compete which means that at the end of the track there is alot of letting off or brakes{I HATE HITTING THE BRAKES!!!!}heads up will always be out of my leage for the fact that i race for fun and dont have the kind of money others have.i have also bracket raced and got burned out of it.i remember spending every dime and waking moment i had to make my car faster just to get beat by some guy or girl running a stock style car with tha ac.kicking window open and the car in drive.to me i race myself everytime i go to the track.i try everything in my power to run faster than the last pass.
     
  10. The Shocker
    Joined: Dec 30, 2004
    Posts: 3,540

    The Shocker
    Member

    Getting beat is part of it .I am just trying to throw out sum ideas to make sum of these guys that want bracket racing happy is all.Im trying to show them and everybody else that there are alternative ways to make it more fair besides Bracket racing .Its easier to sit back and shoot holes in ideas than to come up with one.There is no way to have it thats gunna make everybody happy all the time ,and be totally fair to everyone .More classes would make it more even in my opinion than what it is now .Heres an Example:My dart ran 11.40 -11.50 last time out.They only had two classes that i could fit into at Temple (since im not stock , a dragster ,or a Flathead).I was put into the Comp Class ,and got beat the first round of eleminations because i was in a class with all out Back Halfed ,Big Block cars .I have a mild small block ,with iron heads,and 8 inch slicks.I felt like a 5th grader that was going to high school :eek:.If they had more specific classes like i was saying ,i woulda had more fun and been able to race longer .I wasnt asked about my car in tech ,i was just told what class i was gunna be running.I think it was based on my ET's .If i had been put in the Gas /Coupe /Sedan class ,i woulda cleaned house ,but that wouldnt have been much fun either.There were a few cars running close to my times but i didnt get to line up with them .More classes and more secific classes would be one way to help a little IMO ...:)
     
  11. Casey
    Joined: Nov 8, 2005
    Posts: 3,294

    Casey
    Member Emeritus

    yep totally uneven races they call that heads up.
     
  12. american opel
    Joined: Dec 14, 2006
    Posts: 1,222

    american opel
    Member
    from ohio

    i agree.the only problem is there has to be a large car count to be able to run alot of different classes.i have been to some races that there might be only one or two cars in the same class.its cool if you get to win but how much fun is it to only get to race once?sometimes they will race all of the class winners against eachother to get an overall winner but if they dont do a handycap there is little chance of winning unless you have the car with the most money{which i dont!!}
     
  13. My idea is to have is to have 3 Eliminators street, gas, and open wheel with 2 catergories
    in each Street you would have street and super street rules: stock appearing full body and interior no delay boxes ortwo step rev limiters . Tires: street -street tires no drag radials -s/s slicks and they would run on indexes with a.50 spread everyone with an index would run heads-up the winner of each index would run each other using their index to calculate the handicap until there is a winner in each catergory then the winner of each catergory face-off for street eliminator

    Gas eliminator; vintage gassers and newstalgia gassers rules: no delay boxes no two step rev limiters . and would be run on indexes like above depending on the # of cars
    there would be a place for rear engined volks
    No Wheelie bars on full bodied cars

    Open wheel: FEDS and Altereds rules: no electronics index depending on # of cars and a place for Casey's Flathead and the winner of the top FED and Altered would run using their best time.
    and a place for hot rods timed runs on 1/8 mile no slicks and deemed safe
     
  14. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 3,846

    Truckedup
    Member

    Exactly,that's why we street raced. Entry level street racing with cars that guys drove to work every day.Maybe it was heads up,maybe one guy got a three car spot.But it was choose your race so a guy with a 13 second car didn't need to sweat by getting up against a ladder bar Big Block Chevelle with wide slicks and an engine that shook the fenders at idle like tissue paper in a hurricane.Winning isn't everthing but you at least need a chance to win to keep up the interest.
     
  15. Larry T
    Joined: Nov 24, 2004
    Posts: 7,675

    Larry T
    Member

    .......Run heads up. You beat the other guy, you win. You beat the time on your window, you lose. Drivers and spectators can "negotiate" all they want. Drivers can sandbag all they want. You beat the time you wrote on the window, you lost..........

    That's not heads up, that's handicap racing (actually reads a LOT like bracket racing). Some folks have a lot of trouble telling the difference in handicap racing and bracket racing. But bracket racing and handicap racing don't have to be the same. That's the reason I brought up eliminator brackets for the class winners in an earlier post. The folks running in Competition Eliminator at a national event probably don't think they're bracket racing.
    Larry T
     
  16. Kind of my logic....there are so many different types of events out there, we are fortunate enough to pick what type of racing we want....I personally like the show off races...In other words, run what you brung, no handicaps or dial ins....just heads up against like cars. I simply don't enjoy running against a back halved pro-mod looking money pit with air shifters and delay boxes.....Line me up against another gasser, old hot rod, etc....Have fun, run the wheels off the car, who cares about a purse or trophy...for me, this is a hobby....not a job.
     
  17. RatRoy
    Joined: Jul 9, 2008
    Posts: 371

    RatRoy
    Member

    I raced in the Super Class Index racing for twenty years. I also did a considerable amount of bracket racing at that time. At the H.A.M.B drags last year was the most enjoyable "races" I have seen. I feel that to maintain the enjoyment level is do not pay out any money. Give the winners an old 1950 style trophy. The "real racers" will not show up because they will go where the money and points are being rewarded, the guys racing for the fun of it will love getting old style trophies. Give everybody three time runs, pick their best time and that is there dial-in for the race. Group the cars together by their time runs, i.e. Group 1 - 20 seconds and slower, Group 2 - 15-20 seconds, Group 3 - 12-15 seconds, Group 4 - 9-12 seconds. Group 5 - anybody quicker than 9 seconds. Handicap the starting line, run faster than dial-in you lose. Just my opinion, I could be wrong...:)
     
  18. Don Moyer the reason I suggested different Eliminators and catergories is because people with street tires don't like running against cars with slicks and would stay home and somebody with slicks doesn't want to run against a full-out race car and he doesn't want to against a FED or an Altered but you can't make everyone happy. I know because I've been there run the index and get beat by a car running .500 under after a six hr tow made one run only 2 cars in that class
     
  19. Shifty Shifterton
    Joined: Oct 1, 2006
    Posts: 4,965

    Shifty Shifterton
    Member

    OK, how about a different approach?

    There has been much talk about how your car does not fit the classes well. Why not modify your car to fit the classes that you find fun?

    I mean, even if you're running heads up (c.i. & lbs factored) you're gonna have to do that anyway. Some combo is going to have an inherent advantage. And 2 seasons in you may be pushed into building a very specific car to be competitive. And it may be nothing like the car you have now.

    It's a cycle that repeats in all forms of motorsports. Run whatcha brung, realize the other guys brought rulebook cars, then build your own.
     
  20. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,155

    oj
    Member

    I think i am missing something here. The nostalgia races i have attended had 1/2 second indexs for door cars, protree start and first one across the line wins. Seems pretty basic to me, somebody 2 or 3 tenths slower can easily clean your clock with a protree.
    The engines, suspension etc had to be period correct. In short, you'd have a purpose-built racecar built to the standards of the past. There ain't gonna be no 6 second radial tire car show up to compete nor do i remember any turbo inlets in a ford thunderbolt, that shit just ain't gonna happen.
    Like i said, i just don't understand the bruehaha.
     
  21. rockguy92
    Joined: Jul 18, 2009
    Posts: 1,141

    rockguy92
    Member

    Hey guys,
    Lots of good points in this thread for both sides. I did my share of class racing and bracket racing in the 70's, and I got to say that heads up is the way to go.
    Just look at the HA/GR guys or look at the new class of FED that Toymaker is trying to bring about.
    You gotta have rules, so you make a cubic inch limt, weight limit, and over all general approach to whatever type of car you want to run (ie door-car or rail). You take a stance on the engine/trans mods you will allow and that is your class.
    Will you make everyone happy? Hell no you won't. Just look at one of the threads for the HA/GR class. One guy wants autos, another guy wants slicks. But, the rules have not changed. Other classes have started with rule changes, and that's OK. But the original HA/GR rules have stayed the same.
    I have not raced in years, but I'll tell ya, this HA/GR class has me wound up. Due in no short part to the rules remaining consistant. So I know that if I build a car this winter it won't be outlawed this summer.
    The point to all of this is, make your rules and stick to them. There will always be those guys that throw lots of money at their cars and there is nothing you can do about that. From what I have seen is these guys quickly move on to the next "HOT" class and move on.
    The Rock
     
  22. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,558

    zman
    Member
    from Garner, NC

    Heads up... it's racing. Bracket racing you mind as well be pushing a button and not driving a car.

    Spec classes don't work for nostalgia drags. And production classes in m/c racing? What we're gonna run stock A's?

    Awww... yeah and my Buick isn't a drag car, but I drove 1200+ miles to get there and lined up. If you're not having fun there then you don't understand what it's about.

    Thank you sir.

    I like this ^

    again right on point ^

    And what do you do about Pontiacs? Who decides what's a big block and what's not? I'm finding that all way confusing. Where would a Nailhead fit? Part of the coolness of Nostalgia events is the variety of engines.

    LOL, really throttle stops? I thought we wanted to race not watch paint dry. :eek: I wouldn't be caught dead with a throttle stop on a car.

    LOL, I don't know there has been some heavy competition going down. DW definitely is quick, but I didn't count Kerry out, or Chicken. And let's not forget about the poster child. Mr. Flamedabone. I've loved watching the heat get turned up year after year.
     
  23. The Shocker
    Joined: Dec 30, 2004
    Posts: 3,540

    The Shocker
    Member

    And your idea to improve things at these events was what ???
     
  24. The Shocker
    Joined: Dec 30, 2004
    Posts: 3,540

    The Shocker
    Member

    You know its funny .I hear small talk between people on here at Drag events all year ,unhappy about this or that ,or wish things where being done this way or that ,but havent heard a peep from them on this thread :rolleyes:.All i can say is step up and lets hear your thoughts or ideas about it .Heads up or Bracket Racing for you???
     
  25. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,558

    zman
    Member
    from Garner, NC


    Run what ya brung heads up racing. I'm fine with exactly the way the HAMB Drags and Day of the Drags are run. But then again my favorite cars at the HAMB Drags aren't the fastest ones, but the ones that are driven there from a distance and hammered on and driven home. To me that's what it's about. I appreciate the others and I really do like some of the other cars, but I think the "wanna be" nostalgia cars with all the latest bracket racing goodies should stay home. I appreciate the ones that are gunning for better times each year. But most of the cars are gonna beat me, but I don't really care I'm having fun and hanging out with friends.
     
  26. The Shocker
    Joined: Dec 30, 2004
    Posts: 3,540

    The Shocker
    Member

    Do you race or just watch ? If you race how fast is your car ? Not loaded questions here ,im just asking ...:)
     
  27. REM/Mo
    Joined: Feb 24, 2008
    Posts: 281

    REM/Mo
    Member
    from Missouri

    Heads up all the way.
    Bracket racing just isn't racing.
     
  28. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,558

    zman
    Member
    from Garner, NC

    3 runs this past year, I think the best was a 17.2, which I don't think is to bad after driving 1200+ miles to get there. I was having some issues with her acting like she was running out of gas at about the 1/8th. So I think she has quite a bit more in her. Definitely a street car. I probably never will build a straight up drag car. If I were to build something with more of an eye on competing it would still be a street car first and foremost.

    [​IMG]

    Yeah Customs can run down the track to.
     
  29. The Shocker
    Joined: Dec 30, 2004
    Posts: 3,540

    The Shocker
    Member

    Cool Zman ,atleast your racing and sounds like your having fun .I just think it could be even better with more classes is all.Whether this thread will make an impact on how things are run ,is impossible to say at this point ,but i hope it gets a few people thinking about it...:)
     
  30. The Shocker
    Joined: Dec 30, 2004
    Posts: 3,540

    The Shocker
    Member

    Not sure, i always refered to it as Temple Acadamy:confused:.Its just to the east of Temple Texas .It is the track that the Day Of The Drags are held at every October ...:)
     
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