The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Ryan, Feb 25, 2008.
Awesome car, cool post. Ugly, yet hot, sorta' like Brittany with her head shaved....
Wanna see a video of the current "world's fastest production car"?
I remember seeing something about a factory stock drag race held where the cars were required to be showroom stock and a Supercharged Golden Hawk wooped all our 454 Chevelles and 428 Mustangs. I ran with a guy that had a candy blue Hawk with black rolled and pleated interior, he would tell girls it was a 4 seat Corvette .
when the Avanti came out, it and the Buick Riveria were the two best cars built in America period. I think both are timeless designs.
Uh, no, not really. Are we talking today? What about next week when some other super rich bone heads decide to make some other 5-10 multimillion dollar cars that can go 10 mph faster than this one? At a certain point and beyond, say $200K, in my opinion it just becomes boring and just a matter of how much money you throw at it. And they all start to look the same as well.
What "non-exotic" production cars today can say they can go 160-170 mph even now? Studebaker actually made and sold quite a number of these cars and you can still get one today for pretty cheap relatively speaking. I am sure you can find a R4 version for way under what you pay for some Cuda or "rare" numbers matching Vette.
I am into Studebakers, but I have to admit, I am not too sure on the looks of the Avantis. I never knew they could go that fast in basically stock form. Gives me a new sense of appreciation besides their unorthodox design. But, actually Studebaker always made cars and trucks a little bit on the odd side and probably a little too progressive and experimental for most people's tastes. I think that is why they ultimately weren't able to stay in business. After WW2, they were one of the the biggest, if not the biggest, auto maker in the US and world I think. Mostly because of the war production stuff probably. But, ultimately, they made products that were just a little too outside the mainstream to compete against the more standard competitors who designed and sold more of what more people wanted to buy, for better or worse.
The fiberglass bodies do not rust, but they have a very famous rust problem known to stude people: the "hog troughs".
Pretty expensive to fix.
Some Stude / Avanti people who find an old Avanti needing restoration have a saying: "There is nothing as expensive as a cheap Avanti".
While we are talking about Bonneville cars, I disagree I think Datsun B210's are really Cool !
Whuthefuckyootalkinboutwillis? I'm no Vette fan, but Avanti prettier than '60s Vette? Gethefuckouttahere!
The Stude chassis, like many other facets of the vehicle, was ahead of its time. It was strong, reasonably well designed, and handled well for the era...
As for ugly cars of the '60s - nobody remembers the Marlin?
Another Stude based car which unfortunately morphed into something really ugly was the original Excaliber . This is one the very first built by Brooke Stephens when he was still working at Studebaker and also has a Daytona Chassis with a 289 V8.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I think the Avanti is a timeless style. It even looks good standing still.
Do they put snow on the salt to keep the cars from skidding?
If we're talk'in Bonneville I'm a listening..... Avanti, Lakesters or 'Liners.....
Remember this was in 1962, (only 62 had round headlght buckets) they had 5 different engines: R1- 289cid 4 bbl, R2-289 supercharged 4bbl, hotter cam, R3-304.5cid aluminun heads huge intake valves for the day supercharged, R4-304.5cid 2-4bbls,and an R5-same as R3,4 with 2-4bbls AND 2 superchargers verrrry rare! If i remember right only 3 or 4 were made. Not bad for a non Big 3 company!!!!
Wait a minute.......a '38 Ford owner thinks an Avanti is UGLY????? hahaha......sometimes you post really funny shit man.....
Liked them when they first came out, and still think they are the bitchin'.
The round headlight Avantis were 1963. Studebaker made thousands of them.
The square healight Avantis were 1964 and later. ALL the 1964 and later Avanti, even well into the 1980's and 90's were "square headlight", but all years combined, never equalled the number of round headlight 1963's.
Studebaker never had an aluminum-head version.
Studebaker made THOUSANDS of factory supercharged engines and put them in THOUSANDS of their production cars, Larks, Hawks, etc, and tried to sell as many as they could. The problem was that not enough people were buying.
People preferred the slower big-engined cars because they were "cooler".
Studebaker also was plagued by assembly line problems and slow delivery. Many people took their deposits back and bought other-brand cars that could be bought quickly.
P.S. the Avanti was always one of the most beautiful cars ever made.
If they didn't make aluminum heads, why did I have my hands on 2 sets?????
DECADES later, someone started making aluminum copies of Stude heads, water manifolds, intake manifolds etc etc.
If you have problems with porosity, or leaks, don't blame Studebaker.
It wasn't a factory item.
I believe it is Lionel Stone...
Still can't hold a candle to the fugly AMC Marlin...
Seems right and looks like he still offers all kinds of hipo Stude V8 stuff.
All the Studebaker V8's are essentially the same basic block design; 232, 259 and 289 with the 289 being bored to 299 for the R3 Avanti motor and up to 302 for the R4 version I think. Apparently Andy Granatelli was able to make a R5 version with dual superchargers and a reported 638hp and later got the Avanti up to just shy of 200mph. That is way over 2 hp/ci to boot. That is pretty amazing for an early 60's stock body with apparently no or minimal aerodynamic mods. That is a bit hard to believe and is all recent education for me even as I am mostly into the trucks and not the cars. But the performance of some of the cars are pretty astounding for sure. Thanks for the post Ryan!
Sort of makes me want to rethink dropping the 392 hemi in my Stude truck and go with to a pumped up R3 289, hmm..... got to think about that one. The 392 will make a bunch more torque though I would guess and that is really what I am after.
Brooks Stevens didn't actually work at Studebaker, his design firm was contracted by Stude on a project basis. He did a lot of the same for Jeep and AMC. The first Excaliber was actually a home project for his sons, Steve and Kip, who badly wanted a real Mercedez Benz SSK. Even back in the 60's an SSK was big $$$, so he just built one. Incidentally, Kips first car was an orange Model A rod, built in the late sixties. There used to be a Brooks museum in Mequon, Wisconsin housing the rod, the that first Excaliber, and a lot of other incredible cars those guys had collected or built, including some Stude prototypes. The museum was sold off after Brooks died about a decade ago. I had Brooks as an instructor at art school in the 80's. Great guy, designer, and storyteller. A real motorhead, too.
Style is definitely something each to his own.
As for me I own 63R3565, so I guess I am in the "dig the Avanti" side of the column. It is a factory R2 supercharged 289 with a 4 speed trans. It is coincidental the Stude offered a 289 size engine, many car show spectators see "289" and assume that Ford made the engine for Stude - when Stude had actually beaten Ford to that displacement. No Stude 289 engine parts fit the later Ford 289.
The H.A.M.B. is definitely interesting reading, and I'm thinking that you guys might enjoy a little bit of Stude Avanti info. Don't worry I'm not going to start with the Studebaker Bros. business story from the 1850's.
1) Studebaker made Avantis for two model years: 1963 and 1964.
2) First 1963 production started in June 1962 so you can find some titled incorrectly as 1962 models.
3) There were 3,834 1963 models made, and 809 1964 models made (some counts have it as 3,837 for 1963 and 810 for 1964).
4) After Studebaker production of Avantis ceased at the South Bend plant in December 1963, two enterprising Stude dealers bought up 6 Studebaker buildings and all the rights and equipment to continue making the Avanti.
5) Starting in 1965 the Avanti II was offered with a Chevy sourced 327.
6) The Avanti II's were largely unchanged bodywise through 1983. After that, federal safety standards ushered in a G.M. sourced frame and a reworked body. There were convertibles offered post 1984, and yes they did offer an Avanti rebodied GM late model F body version. Most recently the Avantis were based off the new Mustang platform.
7) There was a series of business misadventures from 1984 onwards, the company is currently dead.
8) Total Avanti production from 1965 onwards numbers more or less equal to the original Stude run of Avantis.
I do own an aluminum set of reproduction R3 heads from Lionel Stone. As for the Stude factory they were firm believers in cast iron - the Stude V8 is as heavy as a BBC.
There were no factory R4 Avantis made, but certainly some dealer kitted cars or ones that Granatelli upfitted for private owners.
There were 9 factory R3 Avantis made, all still exist.
The *real* top speed on most manual trans factory issue R2 Avantis was in the upper 130 mph range depending on gearing. Andy Granatelli sort of used R3 engines to set those 168 mph to 172 mph speed records - this was before the R3 was even officially available! Andy's Bonneville (and Jean Nevada) speed run cars were massaged, not showroom stock - although he did have one stock Avanti with 3.07 gears that was driven to Bonneville and then driven to the mid 140 mph range.
The lone "R5" engined Avanti was also known as Due Cento - Andy had his sights on 200 mph. The R5 did have dual Paxton centrifugal superchargers, but instead of carbs it used a mechanical fuel injection. I believe the fuel injection was made originally by Bendix for a helicopter engine. The R5/Due Cento Avanti employed body mods like wheelwell skirts etc.
The Avanti chassis did date from a 1951 design, with updates. It had its pluses and minuses, it is certainly proven itself with 200+ mph runs. Although not a modern chassis and suspension design for road racing, it actually handles suprisingly well on streets and secondary roads.
Studebaker made 3,834 1963 Avantis..809 1964s..64 and later cars had a square chrome bezel and a round headlight..every year since then to now has averaged about 200 per year..the early 70s "Altman" years are desirable as they were able to put about 1500 meticulous hours into each hand-built car..Yes, they are one of the most beautiful cars ever made..kinda like my bull terrier..so ugly, gotta love em!
OK, this subject will finally get me to post something. I was a true blue Stude fan and they have qualities unlike many other cars of the era. I never had an Avanti but was amazed how delicate the design was- most modifications or bad choice of wheels or paint color could really ruin the design. In the right combinations they could be stunning. Not a straight line on them and really fascinating to walk around to appreciate the body surfacing. The later Avanti II's lost the original rake and the high cut front wheel opening and really hurt the design, in my opinion.
I always hated how my friends big 3 cars handled and would show them how well my Hawk would handle and perform. Opened a few eyes there. The Studebaker Company did a lot of very cool stuff with a very small budget compared to the others and I really respected them for that. Cars with soul.
I once had the #4 GT Hawk that ran Bonneville with the R-4 engine that set a record of 148 with Paula Murphy and the Granatelli brothers driving. A few interesting mods done to that car.
Long story short is that I lost my 4 rare Studes in a wildfire and now I can't go back after realizing all the effort that went into them so now my passion is with Ford Hot Rods. Much easier to get parts for and more creative than restorations. Thanks to the HAMB, that is.
Maybe I'll go there again someday.
Great thread! -Erik
I like 'em. Here's a car from the Stude museum.
As for styling, how about a '31 Studebaker? Better?
Thats cool , i never realized Avanti's where glass. With the steamline body i could see why there are several on the salt.
How about something one the other end of streamlined? This is in the works. check his site link. crazy.www.volksarama.com
sometimes i really wonder about people. almost everyone on this board tries to interpret thier vision of automotive perfection or beauty into their own car. i bet most would be pissed off if they were told their car was ugly.
so why is there so much negativity towards small manufacturers who had the balls to do something other than the safe thing when it came to the cars they built for sale. i bet many of the cars we build would never be accepted by the general population.
many of the cars i see getting scorned are really works of art. of course art is subjective and i have been accused of liking ugly cars so i might be a little defensive in my defense of these machines that are not normal by most sttandards.
by the way gremlins are cool, i don't give a damn if they are ugly. i found this one on the net but my dad and his best friend built one similar with gold scallops. sure would like to have it running now to shake up the people who can't see past FORD.
sorry about the thread jack. just needed to rant a little.
that avanti was awsome, granitelli has been on my hereo list for quite some time. he also did the same type of thing in the 80s with a camaro. used a few more hot rod parts though.
Somebody hadda say it!
All Avantis were four seats.
Maybe you mean four doors?
They WERE ugly.
As they say, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and it is ridiculous to try to convince anyone that your opinion is the correct one. I like all cars and I have both a 63 Studebaker Avanti and a 64 Corvette. I personally like the Avanti better, both it's looks and certainly it's quality. There are alot of cars I don't find particularly attractive, but I would never be ignorant enough to call another man's car ugly. We are all just trying to live our dream.
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