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Big inch four: Mercruiser 470/485

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by jamesdfo, Aug 25, 2008.

  1. randydupree
    Joined: May 19, 2005
    Posts: 667

    randydupree
    Member
    from archer fl

    the chevy bell housing does fit,including the dowel pins,but one bolt will not line up,one only.
    i cut a piece out of my scatter sheild and turned it around,to line up the hole. alot of work for no gain really.
    the stock mercruiser starter will work but you need to cut an egg shaped place out of the bell housing for it to fit.
    the international 345 starter works great.
    anybody on this site can build an alternator mount for the alternator of their choice.
    the cam seal mentioned is actually two seals,i never had one leak,and i never had a head crack,aluim or steel.
     
  2. randydupree
    Joined: May 19, 2005
    Posts: 667

    randydupree
    Member
    from archer fl

    and the same as a neutral balance 302 ford flywheel.
    the balancer is fine stock,it has a single pulley cast in,or a 351 ford fits,(i think) i used a fluid damper for a 351 ford.
     
  3. randydupree
    Joined: May 19, 2005
    Posts: 667

    randydupree
    Member
    from archer fl

    hey Jon.
    at one time i had about 20 of these engines,they did have a head gasket problem,but mercruiser has a gasket that fixed it (for me anyway)
    the charging we don't care about,the stock stuff did look problematic.
    i have never seen a cracked block either,but,like i said,i have only seen 25 or so of these engines.
    the ignition gave you problems?
    its the very same distributer as the chevy 4 banger,it just has an adapter slipped over the body,and it uses chevy style points,cond, and spark plugs are spark plus,right?
    no mystery there..
     
  4. BigChief
    Joined: Jan 14, 2003
    Posts: 2,084

    BigChief
    Member

    The issue is the alignment of the oil pump housing on the block. It is not doweled or positively located and there is wiggle room there for it to be off the mark. There is a Mercruiser tool that is used to make sure the pump is aligned correctly with the distributor drive. This is to make sure you can get your oil pump driveshaft installed and also keep it from binding, fatiguing and breaking over time....and also keeps the oil pump and distributor happy as well.

    -Bigchief.
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  5. randydupree
    Joined: May 19, 2005
    Posts: 667

    randydupree
    Member
    from archer fl

    no need to shim anything,a stock chevy bellhousing works great.
    only thing is,the block is too long on the back where the bell housing bolts up,i milled off 5/8'' and everything worked great
     
  6. randydupree
    Joined: May 19, 2005
    Posts: 667

    randydupree
    Member
    from archer fl

    4= 4 cylinders
    85 = 185HP
    229cid
    3.7 liters
     
  7. bastard
    Joined: Feb 3, 2006
    Posts: 46

    bastard
    Member
    from colorado

    Perfect thanks for the info. I am going dry sump and running a crank trigger. so I think it shouldn't be a problem.
     
  8. randydupree
    Joined: May 19, 2005
    Posts: 667

    randydupree
    Member
    from archer fl

    ok,heres a few things.
    some of the info posted needed correcting,so i did!
    1:bearings,i used 351C main bearings,they do work and fit perfectly,only problem is you need 2 sets,the tangs are different so only the top half works/fits,the top is the grooved side.
    2: gaskets.
    the only head gasket that didnt leak water was the mercruiser (MC) gasket,it has little beads of something around the water ports that the parts store gaskets don't have,and the MC gasket cost me around $30 each,about the same as a napa gasket.
    napa had every gasket i ever needed,but the price was the same as the MC parts.

    3:water pump
    i used the stock water pump for a little while,no problems.
    4: rods
    while i never used the stock rods they do have a ford # on them and i would run them,my engines were all out race engines and i used 6.8'' BBC rods with a stroked crank.
    5:crank
    they did make a steel crank,rare but i ended up with 2,i did use a cast crank in one of my engines.
    i de-stroked one to 3.55 stroke and i stroked one to 3.95.
    i lightened them both after running them for afew years,bad move.
    the heavy crank helps control vibration,and the stroker did vibrate.
    i took over 30lbs off the cranks,i turned off 2'' in the lathe,and knife edged and ground the rest off.not fun.

    6:pistons
    the stock pistons are forged,good stuff and i would run them anytime.
    i had custom pistons made,3.560 on the little motor and 4.360 on the big one,183cid and 240cid.

    7:cams
    i had my cams reground by crane,they have several different grinds for this engine.
    heres the deal,the cams are ground on a 117 LS,they grind them that way to help control intake pulses,and boy do they have pulses.
    i re-ground mine on a 108 LS,do not do this! keep it as stock,re-grind if you want,but don't change the LS (lobe seperation).
    or,don't believe me and do it your way! hahaa!

    my engines were run in a lakester at maxton,we set several records with it and i got bored and sold the lakester,i built a comp coupe out of a 57 fiat 600,we ran it at maxton for a year or two,setting more records,then we took it to B-ville.
    our first pass was a shakedown run,just to feel the salt nad to see if it would stay down,we ran 171 someting on a 171 something record,we were slow by about .0010 MPH.
    and we were just pissing around...
    so,we check it over,all looks good,nothing needs to be done.
    we go back to the line and wait 8 hours to run again.

    lets jump back a little,we never ran a window net at maxton,with the cage we have etc we didnt think we needed one and tech at maxton agreed.
    but,we didnt want any surprises at b-ville,so weput a full door net in.
    the doors on the fiat are suicide doors,hinges at the back.

    fast forward...
    we start our 2nd run,motor sounds good,its out of our sight in just a few seconds.
    that car is small!
    then over the radio they say the drivers door blew open,the door latch got hung in the net and vibrated the latch open.
    we were running over 180mph when the door blew back,it stayed on,but the quarter panel was pulled back and up,it promptly cut the side out of a rear tire,not good.

    we hauled it back to the pits andgot it pretty well fixed,we beat it all back in place and put our other set of tires on it,they were tall,way taller than the set we ruined.
    our ratios were all fucked up now.
    we did all of the repairs with a tech guy watching,they wanted to make sure we fixed it good.

    so,we passed tech for the 2nd time that week,but,they put a 200 mph speed limit on us,for other reasons.

    so,we still didnt have a record,but we were fast as hell.
    so,back to the line,we sit for 8 hours and we make the last run of the day,we pushed it off because our rear gear was way off,at about 60mph we dropped the hammer and away it went,we were loafing along at about 5000 rpm and went through at 186 mph. the record was 171.
    just before popping the chute the engine let go,blew a rod out onto the belly pan.
    so,we could not back the run up.
    we packed up and went home.
    on the bright side we ran that engine 6 years at maxton in 2 different cars.
    183CID and it went 186MPH.
    some of the local guys laughed at it,saying that there chevy 350 would run 200 easy.
    i told them with 350CID they should be running 360MPH if i could run 186mph with 183CID.
    that stopped all that shit!
    more later..
     
    Calkins likes this.
  9. bastard
    Joined: Feb 3, 2006
    Posts: 46

    bastard
    Member
    from colorado

    Thanks for the info. ONe of the ones I am building is getting stroked and the info about lightening the crank is good to know.

    Also one of the motors is going in An anglia we want to take to Bonneville Our goal is 200mph with the turbo motor. So hearing you went 186 mph is really motivating.
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  10. randydupree
    Joined: May 19, 2005
    Posts: 667

    randydupree
    Member
    from archer fl

    186 at 5000 rpm and not even trying,lots of motor left..
    we had a 200MPH speed limit because of tires...
    hell,it went 17o+ at maxton,in a mile.
    and all that with the small engine..183cid
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  11. jamesdfo
    Joined: Mar 16, 2006
    Posts: 133

    jamesdfo
    Member

    Q: RE: 2: gaskets: Has anyone tried COMETIC head gaskets?? ( I guess if the OEM one is holding up, why get fancy?/...but what about if boost is applied??

    Q: RE: 5:crank: I know that in Hot Rod years ago, in a SBC article, Joe Sherman was quoted as saying : Steel cranks are for guys that can't sleep at night" :)......but just the same, is there any way to determine by model number, year of manuf, or by serial number range if the mercruiser will be steel or cast crank prior to disassembly??

    This is turning into a GREAT thread, thanks to everyone who has contributed so far!!

    Thanks!
    James
     
  12. randydupree
    Joined: May 19, 2005
    Posts: 667

    randydupree
    Member
    from archer fl

    gaskets.
    i never blew a gasket,the problem is they leak water into the lifter galley.
    the divider between the water passages and the lifter galley is very narrow,like maybe 3/16th of an inch.
    i used cometics,fel-pro,victor,hylamar,copper coat,alium paint for sealers,they all leaked.
    in desperation i went to the boat place and bought a MC gasket,it had the rubber sealer along the divider,and they don't leak.
    cranks.
    after i fucked up my cranks by cutting 30lbs off of them i went out and learned alot about cranks,steel cranks transmit vibrations better than cast cranks,thats why mercruiser went to the cast cranks,the very early cranks were steel.
    cast cranks vibrate less,simple,the cast cranks work fine.
    MC made them heavy for a reason,to absorb vibrations.

    as far as i know theres no numbers or anything that reveals any information.

    the weak part of this engine is the timing chain tensioner,its a spring loaded deal that i never liked.
    I had all intensions to make a tensioner from some other engine work in the MC,i just never got that.

    i ran a dry sump and a crank trigger the last few years i ran the MC engine,i ran fuel injection (rons flying toilet) and the crank trigger was hooked to a coil pak.
    a coil on plug setup from MSD.
    i ran a steel head at first then along about the 2nd year i bought a new eldobrocke (?) aluim head.
    i took the head apart and put it in my mill and changed all the ports,then i welded and epoxied and flow benched it at Dvorak machine in waldo fl.
    i dont remember the flow numbers but it was pretty good according to Dvorak.
    i built several intakes (like 5 or more).
    the speed differance at maxton was 30 MPH between them,30 MPH? wow,all in the intake design.

    one thing you have to remember,this is not a V8 engine,its not a 350 chevy engine,and the guys that build those engines don't have a clue on what makes a MC engine run.
    the pulses and the vibrations make these engines totally different.
    the only guy that gave me any real world info was Ed Pink,some of you may have heard of him.
    somehow i got his cell number,i called him up and told him what i had for cubic inchs,he started laughing,then hes says"that fucker don't vibrate does it?"more laughter...some of that info is on this thread,if you care to use it.

    more later..
     
    303racer likes this.
  13. KY Boy
    Joined: Sep 6, 2006
    Posts: 403

    KY Boy
    Member

    I was waiting for him to get here^^^^^
     
  14. randydupree
    Joined: May 19, 2005
    Posts: 667

    randydupree
    Member
    from archer fl

  15. Big John M
    Joined: Aug 29, 2008
    Posts: 31

    Big John M
    Member
    from New York

    Randy,
    Did you sell you engines to a guy from Oklahoma who posts over on www.460ford.com, there are a couple threads over there on these engines and this guy had pictures of some engine he bought from a guy that was land speed racing.
    On the threads, there was a post from Kaase on his engine he built. I have one of these engines and I building it for my Model A pickup.
    John
     
  16. mottsrods
    Joined: Jul 9, 2008
    Posts: 742

    mottsrods
    Member

    I had this motor in my boat, a 4 Winns.......and yes it is a strong motor. Remember though, it is a marine motor and is rated for 180hp up to and around 3500 rpm....low rev's, high torque. I wouldn't waste my time on trying to adapt one for the street. They do blow head gaskets pretty easy.
     
  17. jamesdfo
    Joined: Mar 16, 2006
    Posts: 133

    jamesdfo
    Member

    ***Did a quick search over there (using only keyword "mercruiser"), and here's some hits:)...in no particular order....haven't even had a chance to skim them yet....

    http://www.460ford.com/viewtopic.php?t=22318

    http://www.460ford.com/viewtopic.php?t=19574

    http://www.460ford.com/viewtopic.php?t=17902

    http://www.460ford.com/viewtopic.php?t=13863

    http://www.460ford.com/viewtopic.php?t=20258

    it's 9:33....and Ive been on the puter since 4:00....so I'm done for tonight!!

    EDIT:OK, so I start looking at the above links this AM, and one makes mention of www.turboford.net ....well, here are links from a search on turboford.net for keyword "mercruiser"

    http://www.turboford.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000018#000000

    http://www.turboford.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=023403

    http://www.turboford.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=011245

    http://www.turboford.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000327



    James
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2008
  18. randydupree
    Joined: May 19, 2005
    Posts: 667

    randydupree
    Member
    from archer fl

    i sold them,i don't know who or where they live.
    it was a few years ago,and i buy and sell for a living,i don't remember who bought what!
    the red line on these engines is like 5200rpm,or more.
    to say they are not worth using is stupid,how many rpms does a moldel A engine turn?

    i turned my race engines 6500rpm.

    its half of a 460,i guess 460s sucked in cars too?
    thanks for the post,mottsrod
     
  19. Why not just put a 70-71 Lincoln 460/365 hp engine in it and Save Money! <p? Just my 3 cents
     
  20. jamesdfo
    Joined: Mar 16, 2006
    Posts: 133

    jamesdfo
    Member

     
  21. Big John M
    Joined: Aug 29, 2008
    Posts: 31

    Big John M
    Member
    from New York

    I'm just doing a mild build, on my engine software it makes 235 hp 275 ft lbs torque
    the torque curve is flat from 3000 to 4000 rpm, peak hp 4500 to 5000 rpm. It should
    be a fun ride in my little model A pickup weighting less than 2000 lbs.
    Kaase got 400 hp and 400 ft lbs at 9000 rpm in the engine he built. Sure he put alot
    into that engine, he actually built it to do cyl head development but found the 4cyl
    induction wasn't applicable to a V8 engine.
    Thanks for the info,
    John
     
  22. uglydog56
    Joined: Apr 8, 2008
    Posts: 331

    uglydog56
    Member

    To turbocharge these engines you have to short fill them. There's a guy in florida running one of these turbocharged in a dragster. I think his name was red. If you search for red's headers you should find him. He made 2.3L ford headers for the turboford guys a few years ago when I had a turbocoupe.
     
  23. tjm73
    Joined: Feb 17, 2006
    Posts: 3,484

    tjm73
    Member

    Only Ford 302 with neutral balence is the Boss 302. Up until 1981 the 302 was 28oz. Then starting in '82 ALL 302's were 50oz.
     
  24. panic
    Joined: Jan 3, 2004
    Posts: 1,450

    panic

    Re: vibration
    Yes, an iron crank is preferable to steel for transmitting vibration, and extra weight helps.
    However, Ford forgot something that GM re-learned very painfully in 1970: the inherent imbalance of a 4 cylinder in-line cannot be cured. The Vega engine at 2.3 is just above what was considered for 40 years the upper limit of an I-4 (the TR4 at 2.2 just clears, and has some of the symptoms).
    Anything above 2.3 has very elaborate hydraulic motor mounts, counter-rotating balance shafts, or ultra lightweight rods and pistons. Sometimes, an engine is over-designed to the extent that the balance shafts can be removed without immediate problems (Neon 2.4).
    A 3.7 is much, much larger than even the largest successful counter-balance equipped 3.0: the Porsche 944, and is going to rattle your teeth out without very careful planning.
    And, anticipating the obvious response, no, it can't be balanced out.

    More: http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/engine/smooth2.htm
     
  25. panic
    Joined: Jan 3, 2004
    Posts: 1,450

    panic

    More: it looks like the primary balance is OK (all pistons are parallel), but the secondary balance is not. Since this is based on asymmetrical motion induced by the rod ratio (to remove secondary imbalance the rod length must be infinite), a longer rod and/or shorter stroke reduces this error (the 3.59" 429 stroke is preferable to the 3.85" 460 stroke). Not easy to do, not cheap.
    Also helps to keep engine speed down, since this vibration increases as the square of engine speed. Difference between 2,000 RPM at cruising speed and 2,500 is not 25% greater (2,500 ÷ 2,000), but 56% greater (2,500^2 ÷ 2,000^2).
    This is where an overdrive transmission really pays.
     
  26. thall
    Joined: Jul 12, 2008
    Posts: 61

    thall
    Member
    from nc

    Pontiac from 61-63 had vibration issues with the 195 4 cylinder also.... but they were a heckuva engine... especially with a ram air IV head :) ( 1/2 of a 389)... I don't recall how our drag engine was balanced, but it was not an issue... turned it 7200 on the line maximum.

    Chrysler (mitsubishi) 2.6 utilized balance shafts...
     
  27. BigChief
    Joined: Jan 14, 2003
    Posts: 2,084

    BigChief
    Member

    They'd typically turn upwards of 5000RPM in the OEM marine application as 4600-4800 was normal WOT cruise RPM (I've seen a few that were under propped live quite nicely a few hundred RPM up the scale). Despite what the mathmatical theory suggests, these motors were not all that offensive and survived quite a long time in Mercury Marine's product line-up. Had they been THAT bad of a shaker other parts of the boat system (mounts, gimbal bearings, ect) would have shown signs of early failures. Although not the smoothest motors around they do the intended job quite well and when balanced prove to be quite acceptable. Place a well assembled and balanced stocker with nothing more than a header and decently designed fuel system in an early sedan and I think it'd make most hotrodders smile when they hit the loud pedal. A key difference between the marine application and most, if not all, street conversions is that the HUGE appendage at the end of the crank (alternator assembly) is removed and replaced with a balancer 'that fits'. A sizable balancer (read: freakin heavy) with a similar weight to the alternator (although not conducive to all-out power) would probably help somewhat with harmonics.

    -Bigchief.
     
  28. thall
    Joined: Jul 12, 2008
    Posts: 61

    thall
    Member
    from nc

    Also had a 470 in a 23ft cuddy cabin boat... big chief is on the money.... about 4600-4800 WOT with a good prop.. 19 pitch and about 48 mph.
    the rodchester 2bbl gave very good fuel economy, closed loop cooling kept it alive in salt water.
    never noticed any really bad vibration and idled smooth as silk.

    mentioned in prior posts is the 'unusual' cam seal which could be an issue on street.. but never had one in boat.
     
  29. iadr
    Joined: Apr 14, 2007
    Posts: 147

    iadr
    Member

    Well, just happened on this thread...
    Panic I recognize from other boards, and I imagine he, I.
    And jamesdfo is from Edmonton, as am I... a pretty remarkable co-incidence.
    Randy and I emailed on this a few years ago.
    Phil, I think provided me with some documentation- Mercruiser parts list and a write up of a drag build.
    BigChief, it sounds like you are well up to speed on these- I searched here close to 3 years ago and it sounded like you were just getting into these.

    My plan is to keep the OE alternator, cast crank and go light aluminum rods (and light pistons). Aluminum, not just for the weight, but moreso for the "deadblow" effect of the material: dampening how abnormal (or even normal) combustion is translated to the crank. For the rods, I am thinking Ford 5.4L dimension (2.086" journal, 6.657") and do a max-offset grind (~.412-.414 stroke), but since they are going to be custom, I am tempted to push the minimum compression height & go another .150" or so longer. The advantage to staying stock length would be I could change back to steel rods if I wanted to (I'd take .014" or so off the C-to-C to allow for the growth vs steel) .

    The block I have is .030 with some scratches in it. I thought I'd go 4.42" and have 4.44 as a back up, but someone mentioned if i go 4.44, I have 4.47 (GM 502) as a back up. Any opinion on max bore on these? I know I have reprints from (Phil I think?) of an Inliners club article where the guy is running 4.44 and 14:1 and a [email protected] cam. I don't think he had problem, but I'd like back-up on that. Dunno that you can sonic check a dryliner block like this.

    I am stuck on the head... my first choice would be Boss.. but that's a *lot* of money: either Kaase's new stuff (which hsould bolt on, and despite the low ports, is a really nice piece, or a too-damn-big-port a441 Prostock. Next would be TFS/EX514/Eliminator "A460", or the rare small intake port b460 version of that- a fully worked one of the latter would be close to the best, area-under-the-curve speaking. The best budget deal would be the TFS "Street" head- (blows the Edelbrocks out of the water, Blue Thunder's can't keep up, either.)

    I am wondering about a belt drive on the cam- DannyBee make a 460 kit. Looking at it, I need 460 length, and a SBC cam gear, I think? It sure looks like the nose of the cam is SBC. I need to go to my ex-employer-speedshop with a caliper and see.

    What are anyone's plans on intake manifolds- if there is a chance of buying an intake manifold that I like, that might help my decision, head-wise.

    I am thinking of getting the correct long-length thread studs from C&C (Caroll Carter). I know Randy paid a bunch to get custom ones made, but by basic dimension, the C&C ones are perfect- they sell aluminum 460 blocks & have them in stock... On the other hand, my belief is on a big aluminum block like this, the 9/16" may not stretch correctly for best seal, and that a necked down version with 9/16" threads and ~.500" shank would tension best.

    I'm wondering about building a stud girdle- looks easy- I have the pics of the one Randy used. There is almost no radius where the main saddles lend into the block. That, and the somewhat brittle nature of the die-cast (as opposed to sand) blocks worried me a bit at first. Again, on the other hand, not too many people are talking about cracking down there, even hydraulicing a marine application. I suspect many automotive racers are partial filling and girdle-ing (and studding), though aside from Randy who ran one, they don't usually say.

    Any serious interest in getting together a group buy on roller-cam compatible cam cores?

    I am going to be ignoring some of the good advice on here and closing up the LSA a goodly bit...and pushing the limits of a pump-gas-friendly build, compression-wise.

    Build is delayed a bit as 1/ un-knownst to me, my machine shop of choice for this closed about 10 months ago 2/ with the economic news I am am thinking I might prefer to have extra cash on hand, rather than more toys.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2008
  30. iadr
    Joined: Apr 14, 2007
    Posts: 147

    iadr
    Member

    BTW, another call for pic's of the Boss headed versions.... even if it's just set together!

    Also, transmission-wise, I plan T5. Now, I know that there exist bellhousings to go from SBC to Ford type T5, and that are several length of input shaft. My tentative plan is a bellhousing from a Jeep with Ironduke&T4 and a Mustang sn95 3.8V6 (has the best ratios, IMO) transmission. These are supposed to be .5, .55 longer than the previous standard Ford/AMC version T5. That might be close enough to .625" to work?
    Any reactions or suggestions to that selection of parts?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2008

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